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PICList Thread
'[AD] Looking for work'
2004\10\11@153826 by Dave VanHorn

2004\10\11@214231 by Bob Axtell

You are in Indiana, right?

If you can pass a rigid secret clearance, Raytheon might have a job for
you here
in Tucson  (making Patriot and similar missiles); they are hiring like
crazy, engineers
and techs. Very high level military projects going on, so high level
that the crackpots
aren'e even allowed to march or picket AT ALL and the security is armed
patrols,
police dogs and high electrtified fences.

If you like more adsventure, the US Border Patrol in Tucson has TV and
radio ads going,
and their equipment is becoming VERY hitech so there could be a match
there. They opened
about 500 jobs here.

Low cost of living- a NICE apartment can be rented for $450 a month, a
house for less than
$1000. All the cactus, rattlesnakes and field mice you can eat for free,
and you don't have
to mow the lawn (you rake the rocks around once a year). Bad teeth?
Dentists in Mexico
(50 miles south) cost 1/4 of US dentists, and don't hurt as much...

--Bob

Dave VanHorn wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>Me again.
>
>They tell me I'm outstanding in my field, unfortunately, it's a cornfield.
>There just isn't much/anything in my local area..
>
>So, I'm looking, willing to relocate within reason.
>You guys pretty much know what I can do.
>Anybody have or know of any situations I could fill?
>
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>

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2004\10\11@215549 by Dave VanHorn

2004\10\11@232200 by Hopkins

2004\10\11@233209 by Dave VanHorn

2004\10\12@003138 by Spehro Pefhany

At 04:22 PM 10/12/2004 +1300, you wrote:
>Is that a cereal joke?

Is this what corn means to you?

http://www.urbanext.uiuc.edu/veggies/images/corn.jpg

Or could it be this under any circumstances?

http://waynesword.palomar.edu/images/cereal1b.jpg

I think there's some a-maize-ing Pondial differences.

Best regards,

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2004\10\12@084910 by Lawrence Lile

2004\10\12@095434 by Steve Kosmerchock

Lawrence,

I HAVE worked on stuff that kills people, I'm proud of that. I have done work for General Dynamics tank operations (Florida) as well as Raytheon Missile Systems (AZ / CA).
I don't judge you, it isn't my place, but as you said, defense is a big deal. I am currently considering an oppurtunity to save lives, medical electronics.
Now if I could only convince "the brass" at Raytheon to outfit my car with missiles, it sure would make rush hour traffic more interesting........ :) The swamp cooler thing is definately not used very often during summer, too darn hot. My AC bill during the peak months of summer is between $150 to $200 a month.Bob nailed the work environemnt fairly well, between Tucson / Phoenix area you have Raytheon, General Dynamics, Intel, Motorola, Microchip, Orbital Sciences, Medtronic, FlipChip, White Electronics Design ... etc.

Here is a small listing of AZ tech companies:
www.geocities.com/researchtriangle/lab/6584/AZ_TECH_EMP.html

Good luck Dave!!

Steven Kosmerchock
Phoenix, Az USA



Lawrence Lile <llileKILLspamprojsolco.com> wrote:

>
> No idea on the clearance.
> I'd be worried that the positions would evaporate if we run out of folks
> to
> bomb.

It depends, if you make a REALLY BIG bomb, you'll only have a job until they set it off. But if you make a LOT OF LITTLE BOMBS, you may have a job for quite a while as the population naturally recovers each time.

Thankfully, I have never had a job where the point was to design things to kill people, and I am rather proud of that fact.


{Quote hidden}

>
> >If you like more adsventure, the US Border Patrol in Tucson has TV and
> >radio ads going,
> >and their equipment is becoming VERY hitech so there could be a match
> >there. They opened
> >about 500 jobs here.
>
> Hmm. Remote sensing etc, could be fun.



>
> >Low cost of living- a NICE apartment can be rented for $450 a month, a
> >house for less than
> >$1000. All the cactus, rattlesnakes and field mice you can eat for free,
> >and you don't have
> >to mow the lawn (you rake the rocks around once a year). Bad teeth?
> >Dentists in Mexico
> >(50 miles south) cost 1/4 of US dentists, and don't hurt as much...
>
> What's the air conditioning bill look like?

Tucson is cooler than Phoenix. Phoenix is where the Devil takes vacations when Hell gets too cold for him.

Air conditioning in the desert southwest is mostly done with swamp coolers, which use evaporative cooling, much cheaper than refrigeration.

Phoenix is, of course, home to Motorola and Microchip, amongst others. Motorola lays off about 7000 people every two or three years.

Good luck, Dave!

--Lawrence
{Quote hidden}

>
> I've been through there, and wouldn't mind living there.
>
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2004\10\12@100603 by Dave VanHorn

2004\10\12@130947 by Ake Hedman

2004\10\12@132548 by Dave VanHorn

2004\10\12@142442 by M. Adam Davis

2004\10\12@165750 by Bob Axtell

Having no degree is not a problem if you are older. I
long ago found out that the best embedded programmers
dropped out of high school to play video games. Einstein
had to be home schooled because he didn't like normal
school.

I have an EE in power engineering, and I never ONCE
had a job at it because I was so anti-nuke (Later  I found
out that it was boring, anyway). There was no degree when I
was a kid for EE embedded systems.

Don't be intimidated. Tell them that you will work for the first month
on a low-rate contract to prove your ability, no strings attached.
Place a few references on your resume. If they need help, they'll bite
at it.

--Bob

M. Adam Davis wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> Dave VanHorn wrote:
>
>>
>> Thanks.  I've been working along these lines, but unfortunately, my
>> lack of degree is less likely to be acceptable at larger companies,
>> mostly because too many HR drones are between me and the guy who has
>> the position open.
>>
> When I was laid off 4 years ago I found that without a degree they
> would not even look at the remainder of the resume, as the HR
> departments always used that as a hard requirement, and since (at the
> time) they were receiving 300-500 resumes per position it was easy to
> simply dismiss the half or more who didn't exactly fit the requirements.
>
> I ended up sending customized cover letters, and sometimes customized
> resumes, to whomever was listed in the ad, but then I'd call them 3-5
> days later and ask if they've received the resume, and when could they
> meet with me.  I got about 4 interviews out of 20 customized cover
> letters, resumes, and follow up calls, and no interviews for those
> positions where I simply sent a resume.
>
> During the interviews that actually took place I found that many of
> the other people they interviewed had drastically blown their resume
> up, and I was one of the top candidates, but in the end I still only
> got one offer - but it was the perfect position for me at the time.  
> Even better since the economy took a hard nose dive right after and
> the industry I ended up in (video rental) actually rose slightly as
> the economy went under.
>
> It's a hard row to hoe but the economy is turning around.  There are
> many, many companies looking for great employees, the hardest part is
> showing them that you are great.
>
> Nothing you don't know already, I'm sure, just commiserating with
> you.  I wish you the best of luck!
>
> -Adam
> _______________________________________________
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2004\10\12@170651 by Dave VanHorn

2004\10\12@175531 by redtock8

Hey Bob,
Where do you live. I'm in the Atlanta area and I'm past 50 and
I have not found what you say to be true. I have been pounding
the streets for over a year and not a singe bite as soon as they
find out I don't have a degree. Heck they want A+ cert for an
$8/hr beanch tech.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------
DXTron Technology Inc
PCB Assembly
PIC Chip Programming
-----------------------------------------------------------------
EraseMEredrock8spam_OUTTakeThisOuTdxtron.com
http://www.dxtron.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------
{Original Message removed}

2004\10\12@180730 by steve

2004\10\12@193932 by Bob Axtell

I'm in Tucson, have been for several years, mostly
trying to retire (health issues), but I'm still busy with
PIC embedded design, even though I have a few
health issues Hell, I'm 61..

But I was once in Atlanta, doing law enforcement and
datalogging design there, and my best 8031 programmer (who
later moved to FL) was a high school dropout who liked
to drive up to the nudist colony in North GA above Duluth
someplace.

The key will be references. If you are 50, think about it: not
even a handful of colleges taught embedded electronics when you
were a kid; the thing was a pipedream. Call up people that
know  what you have done already, and use them for references,
and provide. Most of the HR people are dimwits, I agree. Say, "I
am self-taught".

Write me offline. I still have a contact or two in Atlanta.

And good luck.

--Bob

redtock8@dxtron wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> Hey Bob,
> Where do you live. I'm in the Atlanta area and I'm past 50 and
> I have not found what you say to be true. I have been pounding
> the streets for over a year and not a singe bite as soon as they
> find out I don't have a degree. Heck they want A+ cert for an
> $8/hr beanch tech.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> DXTron Technology Inc
> PCB Assembly
> PIC Chip Programming
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> redrock8spam_OUTdxtron.com
> http://www.dxtron.com
> -----------------------------------------------------------------

> {Original Message removed}

2004\10\12@203818 by Josh Koffman

I'd be careful with that. A couple years back I was looking at a
program from Kennedy Western (I believe), who are a pseudocollege. I
wanted to do it for the knowledge, but basically what I gathered was
that having a degree from a degree mill can be very detrimental. And
it's very easy to check up on thanks to google. Not a real university?
Resume goes in the circular file.

Josh
--
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
       -Douglas Adams

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 11:07:17 +1300, @spam@steveKILLspamtla.co.nz <KILLspamsteveKILLspamtla.co.nz> wrote:
> We know that, but the HR first line of offense don't.
> I've often wondered about buying one of those dodgy degrees, just to
> circumvent that problem. I'd be totally open & honest about it at the
> interview - maybe you'd score points for lateral thinking*.
> I'm self-unemployed, so it's just a theory.
>
> *As I did when I was the first person at my school to use the new
> fangled photocopy machine to assist with writing 1000 lines.
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2004\10\12@205440 by Dave VanHorn

2004\10\12@211929 by Jinx

2004\10\12@220953 by Jim Tellier

2004\10\12@222812 by David Koski

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 19:09:36 -0700
"Jim Tellier" <RemoveMEjimtellierTakeThisOuTcox.net> wrote:

<snip>

> I hadn't ever heard of a more advanced case of 'degree snobbery'

Is it possible they used that for an excuse when they really discriminated
against your age?

David

--
David Koski
spamBeGonedavidspamBeGoneKosmosIsland.com
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2004\10\12@223504 by Dave VanHorn

At 09:28 PM 10/12/2004, David Koski wrote:

>On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 19:09:36 -0700
>"Jim Tellier" <TakeThisOuTjimtellierEraseMEspam_OUTcox.net> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
> > I hadn't ever heard of a more advanced case of 'degree snobbery'
>
>Is it possible they used that for an excuse when they really discriminated
>against your age?

VERY possible.

Reminds me of the wisconsin laws on housing discrimination.
They have to rent to you regardless of race etc.
They can't throw you out for being black, or having children, but they CAN
throw you out for NO reason.

So, how stupid do you have to be to get busted for housing discrimination
in wisconsin?


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2004\10\13@013800 by Jim Tellier

2004\10\13@014903 by William Chops Westfield

2004\10\13@024423 by Jose Da Silva

2004\10\13@033716 by Ake Hedman

2004\10\13@035454 by Alan B. Pearce

2004\10\13@040003 by William Chops Westfield

2004\10\13@050522 by Ake Hedman

2004\10\13@084820 by alan smith

2004\10\13@103826 by Dave VanHorn

2004\10\13@234037 by Rich

2004\10\14@012632 by William Chops Westfield

2004\10\14@033057 by Wouter van Ooijen

2004\10\14@034443 by Dave VanHorn

2004\10\14@040145 by Ake Hedman

2004\10\14@042308 by Russell McMahon

2004\10\14@042854 by Wouter van Ooijen

2004\10\14@043949 by Mike Harrison

2004\10\14@044829 by William Chops Westfield

2004\10\14@053806 by Alan B. Pearce

2004\10\14@071856 by Russell McMahon

2004\10\14@091019 by Mike Hord

2004\10\14@092547 by hid Sheikh

2004\10\14@092738 by hael Rigby-Jones

>-----Original Message-----
>From: RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTmit.edu [piclist-bouncesEraseME.....mit.edu]
>On Behalf Of Mike Hord
>Sent: 14 October 2004 14:10
>To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
>Subject: Re: [AD] Looking for work
>
>Ayup.  Although as a recent grad, I can witness to the fact
>that such a thing is no longer the case.  In the course of my
>last year I saw things such as people trying to set up serial
>links with no ground wire.
>
>These were senior level students.  I have no idea why some of
>them graduated.

Due mainly to the overly theoretical bias that typical EE degrees offer.
Often the graduates that have a good understanding of the practicalities of
engineering are those that have had an interest from a younger age and have
had more hands on experience.

Regards

Mike

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2004\10\14@102037 by Wouter van Ooijen

2004\10\14@102038 by Wouter van Ooijen

2004\10\14@120438 by vze27bym

2004\10\14@130146 by Win Wiencke

2004\10\14@131910 by Win Wiencke

2004\10\14@132651 by Dave VanHorn

2004\10\14@133603 by Win Wiencke

2004\10\14@140249 by Spehro Pefhany

At 01:17 PM 10/14/2004 -0400, you wrote:
><William Chops Westfield observed
>
> >You can easily get an EE or software degree
> > from a prestigious institution without ever having programmed
> > a microcontroller at all, and usually without ever having soldered.
>
>I don't doubt there are software degree programs that don't include embedded
>work or involve circuit design.
>
>But I find it hard to believe that an accredited EE degree would not involve
>making at least one project involving an embedded processor and soldering up
>a prototype.  It would be a sad comment on education if true.
>
>Win Wiencke
>Image Logic Corporation

Four years of hard work is just not enough to do much hands-on beyond labs
and still get a solid footing in the fundamentals. The fundamentals will
last a lifetime, much of the hands-on stuff is ephemeral beyond just the
feel-good factor. If you have a talent for technician-type work, it's easy,
if not, it's not very teachable. The professors, most of them, if they are
world-class, do not spend much time doing practical stuff. They do
cutting-edge
research and write papers describing their work to their peers. The research
may be of a mind-numbingly theoretical nature. Grad students are
probably the ones doing any soldering that is required. Same with their
connections with industry. The professors' talents are usually elsewhere
(often
their talents and heart are REALLY not in teaching undergrads either- it's
just a duty that comes with the fun parts of the job).

Would it surprise you if a good litigation lawyer wasn't very efficient
at registering a mortgage? Or if a endocrinologist had to consult a book
before attempting to deliver a baby?

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
EraseMEspeffinterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com




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2004\10\14@160105 by Bob Axtell

2004\10\14@161358 by Robert Rolf

2004\10\14@173644 by Lawrence Lile

2004\10\14@175538 by Mike Harrison

2004\10\14@180256 by Dave VanHorn

2004\10\14@233210 by Ben Hencke

2004\10\14@233737 by Dave VanHorn

2004\10\15@000859 by William Chops Westfield

2004\10\15@020024 by William Chops Westfield

2004\10\15@043727 by Alan B. Pearce

2004\10\15@050157 by steve

> >> projects that I can't discuss due to NDAs,
> Can't discuss AT ALL?  Those are pretty strong NDAs.

I wouldn't discuss them anyway. NDA or not, if I get information in
confidence then that is how it stays. Just as I don't expect my
accountant, lawyer or doctor to discuss anything relating to another
party.

I was asked to bring my lab notebook to an interview once, refused and
still got the job. I turned it down on the basis that they had asked.

OTOH, there is plenty of code that is generic and suitable for sharing. A
microcontroller initialisation routine is a good example. It says a lot
about your coding style, but gives away nothing more than what is in the
datasheet.

Steve.

==========================================
Steve Baldwin                          Electronic Product Design
TLA Microsystems Ltd             Microcontroller Specialists
PO Box 15-680, New Lynn                http://www.tla.co.nz
Auckland, New Zealand                     ph  +64 9 820-2221
email: RemoveMEsteveEraseMEEraseMEtla.co.nz                      fax +64 9 820-1929
=========================================



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2004\10\15@051559 by BryanW

2004\10\15@054629 by D. Jay Newman

> >embedded processor and soldering up a prototype.  It would
> >be a sad comment on education if true.
>
> Based on what I have seen of gap year students coming through our lab, with
> a year of university to go before they graduate, it would not surprise me.

...

Around 15 years ago my wife got a job as a programmer for Penn State.
She was fairly skilled (she had previously worked for a defense contractor
and saw the next wave of layoffs coming). Lee has a BS degree in Math.

During her first year she had to explain the concept of *pointers* to
one of her coworkers who held a Master's degree. About six months
later the same coworker asked her the same question again!

I am not surprised at a lack of practical experience in graduates now. :(
--
D. Jay Newman           ! DCX - it takes off and lands base down,
RemoveMEjayspam_OUTKILLspamsprucegrove.com     !       as God and Robert Heinlein intended.
http://enerd.ws/robots/ !
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2004\10\15@093236 by Lawrence Lile

2004\10\15@095929 by Spehro Pefhany

At 11:00 PM 10/14/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>On Oct 14, 2004, at 8:37 PM, Dave VanHorn wrote:
>
>>>projects that I can't discuss due to NDAs,
>
>Can't discuss AT ALL?  Those are pretty strong NDAs.  Perhaps not
>even legal.  Have you checked with your previous clients to see if
>you can include their projects in your resume/etc?
>Obviously, you can't give away key 'secrets' or source code, but
>no interviewer would (should) ever expect you to.  NDAs on the
>fact that company X might be shipping product Y soon have definate
>lifetimes to them...
>
>BillW

IHMO, a portfolio of previous successful projects, one that you can
convincingly describe your actual contributions to*, is worth a metric
pantload of those tired lists of skills that tend to populate CVs these
days.

* describing how a project was approached and what problems had to be
overcome gives me the confidence that the person actually was deeply
involved. Some people do puff up the scope of their contributions or
outright lie, unfortunately.

You don't have to give away any proprietary information at all in 90%+
of the cases. I would, however, be especially careful if the project
you want to discuss and the company you are interviewing for are in the
same industry, or even worse if it's a company you know or suspect to
be a competitor. Maybe best to elide such material, if practical.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
RemoveMEspeffTakeThisOuTspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com




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2004\10\15@104105 by Dave VanHorn

2004\10\15@104850 by Win Wiencke

2004\10\15@105743 by Win Wiencke

2004\10\15@111428 by Support - KF4HAZ

2004\10\15@112420 by Win Wiencke

2004\10\15@113259 by Alex Harford

2004\10\15@113713 by Dave VanHorn

2004\10\15@113807 by Dave VanHorn

2004\10\15@114246 by Dave VanHorn

2004\10\15@115026 by Ake Hedman

2004\10\15@115312 by Ake Hedman

2004\10\15@115429 by Byron A Jeff

2004\10\15@115929 by Dave VanHorn

2004\10\15@120037 by Alex Harford

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 10:42:48 -0500, Dave VanHorn <EraseMEdvanhornspamspamBeGonedvanhorn.org> wrote:
>
> >
> >I used to look for programmers who wrote "if(3 = = foo)" rather than "if(foo
> >= = 3)"
>
> Ok, I'm new at C, why is the second case less preferable? It seems
> counterintuitive.
> The first case seems to imply that 3 is the variable, though I know it
> can't be.

Because old compilers didn't give you a warning if you accidentally wrote

if(foo = 3)

whereas you will get an error if you write

if(3 = foo)

although with MSVisualC++ you can put a pragma in there to say, yes, I
want to have an assignment operation within an if statement.  And if
someone ever does that, they should be taken out back and shot IMO. :)

Now you shouldn't be using = instead of == in the first place, but if
people never made mistakes, we wouldn't need debuggers, simulators,
etc.

Alex
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2004\10\15@121152 by Dave VanHorn

2004\10\15@121154 by Alan B. Pearce

2004\10\15@121348 by Ake Hedman

2004\10\15@123007 by Peter Johansson

2004\10\15@123215 by Mark James

2004\10\15@123855 by Peter L. Peres

2004\10\15@123903 by Peter L. Peres

2004\10\15@123906 by Peter L. Peres

2004\10\15@124257 by Byron A Jeff

2004\10\15@130115 by Peter Johansson

2004\10\15@130356 by Win Wiencke

2004\10\15@131249 by Dave VanHorn

2004\10\15@132358 by Win Wiencke

2004\10\15@133912 by Win Wiencke

2004\10\15@135806 by Josh Koffman

I'm not sure how the other engines do it, but Google ranks pages. They
have a pretty good explanation on their site. One part of it is that a
page gets a higher rank when lots of other pages link to it. By
getting enough people to link to something using a specific word for
the link, you can do some fun stuff. As an example, SCO is a much
hated company amongst Linux users right now. There are a lot of Linux
users on the net. Do a search for "litigious bastards" on Google, and
see who tops the list :)

Regardless, I agree that unless a young engineer's work is linked to
or viewed a lot, they aren't likely to end up very high in the Google
rankings.

Josh
--
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
       -Douglas Adams

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 13:37:53 -0400, Win Wiencke <RemoveMEwinKILLspamslycurves.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> A few months ago I would have agreed.  But the search engines are so hit or
> miss that a young engineer's work might not show up.
>
> We tracked a few real and bogus sites for about a year.  There appears to be
> no logic to what Google, Yahoo or MSN pick up.  One of our markers was
> deliberately chosen because it was so on-point.  The first key word ("how
> many sisters") matched the site name, the title contains "How Many Sisters",
> there are many references to "How Many Sisters" in the body, and the term
> "How Many Sisters" is pretty big.  Yet a half year after the site was
> registered by hand with each search engine a search for "How Many Sisters"
> yeilds no hit on this Finnish jazz group's site.

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2004\10\15@143009 by Spehro Pefhany

At 08:59 AM 10/15/2004 -0700, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 10:42:48 -0500, Dave VanHorn <dvanhornSTOPspamspam_OUTdvanhorn.org>
>wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >I used to look for programmers who wrote "if(3 = = foo)" rather than
> "if(foo
> > >= = 3)"
> >
> > Ok, I'm new at C, why is the second case less preferable? It seems
> > counterintuitive.
> > The first case seems to imply that 3 is the variable, though I know it
> > can't be.
>
>Because old compilers didn't give you a warning if you accidentally wrote
>
>if(foo = 3)
>
>whereas you will get an error if you write
>
>if(3 = foo)
>
>although with MSVisualC++ you can put a pragma in there to say, yes, I
>want to have an assignment operation within an if statement.  And if
>someone ever does that, they should be taken out back and shot IMO. :)

C is kinda designed to encourage that sort of thing. A lot of experienced
C programmers will write

if (infile = fopen(...)) {...}

rather than

infile = fopen(...);
if (NULL == infile) {...}



>Now you shouldn't be using = instead of == in the first place, but if
>people never made mistakes, we wouldn't need debuggers, simulators,
>etc.
>Alex

and code coverage analysis. It would be nice if MPLAB supported it like
Keil's IDE does (it shows you which lines have executed in your source
code so you can see at a glance if you've missed testing any branches
in the program.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
spamBeGonespeffSTOPspamEraseMEinterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com




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2004\10\15@144736 by Bill & Pookie

2004\10\15@145351 by Support - KF4HAZ

2004\10\15@145626 by Dave VanHorn

2004\10\15@155937 by Peter L. Peres

2004\10\15@155940 by Peter L. Peres

2004\10\15@155951 by Peter L. Peres

2004\10\15@161916 by Ake Hedman

2004\10\15@162703 by Alex Harford

2004\10\15@171241 by Ake Hedman

2004\10\15@183531 by Ben Hencke

On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:37:36 -0500, Dave VanHorn <KILLspamdvanhornspamBeGonedvanhorn.org> wrote:

> >
> >Is it wrong to take a printout of some code and show it to the
> >interviewer so long as you do not let it leave the room? (yes, and
> >take it with you after the interview)
>
> It would be. I've agreed not to disclose these things.

Showing a few pages is not disclosing anything that could be
considered a trade secret, and thats the only thing NDAs affect. I
would never disclose important, secret, or otherwise valuable
information. Consider how much balls it would take to do so with a
potential employer during the interview! Code out of context is
useless in most cases (and in this one specifically, an xml parser).
Also NDAs must legally have clauses that allow you to share some
information so long as you make effort to protect that information or
put the other party under similar NDA. I think keeping physical
control of the printout and making sure they interviewer was not
scanning it or anything would qualify.


>
> >I was told last week that my printout was the major deciding factor in
> >my hiring (hired 4 months ago). He found my coding style and well
> >commented easy to read code exactly the kind of thing he was looking
> >for, more than any degree.
>
> Well, if I ever get past the HR drones and get an interview, I'll take some
> code with me for sure.

That is always the hardest part. A blatantly simplified resume and
phone harassment are a good start. Offering to work for free for a
week never hurts. I have done this once before -- they were very
impressed). I am very glad not to be in that position right now, it
sucks.

>
> >If you have some free time, contribute.
>
> Been doing that, See my page.

It was more of a general rant than a reply specific comment, no
offence intended ;-)

- Ben
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2004\10\15@205549 by steve

2004\10\15@221228 by Win Wiencke

2004\10\16@021027 by William Chops Westfield

2004\10\16@021637 by William Chops Westfield

2004\10\16@022816 by William Chops Westfield

2004\10\16@034424 by William Chops Westfield

On Oct 15, 2004, at 5:55 PM, EraseMEsteveEraseMEtla.co.nz wrote:

> The statement "if(3==foo)" is written in the opposite way to how you
> would describe what the statement is doing, so the statement isn't
> immediately and inherently self documenting.

I dunno.  It's just not ENGLISH.  Mathematicians will consider
an equality statement fully reversable; "foo = 3" is precisely
identical to "3 = foo"; one of the foundations of algebra, sort of.

BillW

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2004\10\16@035842 by Dave VanHorn

At 02:44 AM 10/16/2004, William "Chops" Westfield wrote:


>On Oct 15, 2004, at 5:55 PM, @spam@steve@spam@spam_OUTtla.co.nz wrote:
>
>>The statement "if(3==foo)" is written in the opposite way to how you
>>would describe what the statement is doing, so the statement isn't
>>immediately and inherently self documenting.
>
>I dunno.  It's just not ENGLISH.  Mathematicians will consider
>an equality statement fully reversable; "foo = 3" is precisely
>identical to "3 = foo"; one of the foundations of algebra, sort of.

Yes, but in C, it's not reversible.
In some C compilers, the statement 3 = foo or foo = 3 is not evaluated the
same way humans do.


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2004\10\16@053936 by Jose Da Silva

On Saturday 16 October 2004 12:44 am, William Chops Westfield wrote:
> On Oct 15, 2004, at 5:55 PM, spamBeGonesteveKILLspamtla.co.nz wrote:
> > The statement "if(3==foo)" is written in the opposite way to how you
> > would describe what the statement is doing, so the statement isn't
> > immediately and inherently self documenting.
>
> I dunno.  It's just not ENGLISH.  Mathematicians will consider
> an equality statement fully reversable; "foo = 3" is precisely
> identical to "3 = foo"; one of the foundations of algebra, sort of.

To add to the arguement....    :-)
If you look at the output of some compilers, you may find disagreement too.

if (foo == 3) {

would collect "foo" and subtract the #3 to test for zero

if (3 == foo) {

would collect 3, place it on the stack, then collect foo, then subtract foo
from stack value "3"

it doesn't seem to sound like much, but if you have seen a DWORD being done
on a 16bit compiler, you do see a fair bit of juggling of values.

To me, if (foo == 3) is just more "efficient" from a compiler point of view.
likewise, I would also prefer to see complicated stuff on the left with
simple stuff on the right... therefore, preference for:

if (foo == 3) {
if (function(foo) == 3) {
if (function(foo1) == foo2) {
if (function1(function2(foo1) == function3(foo2))

also in the name of efficiency, it makes sense to test for something more
likely, then test for something less likely, so:

(poor example, but hopefully conveys the idea)
if ((c < 32) || (c == EOF)) {   <- more likely to encounter c < 32

would be prefered versus:

if ((c == EOF) || (c < 32)) {  <- only going to encounter EOF only once
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2004\10\16@095214 by Gerhard Fiedler

2004\10\16@100438 by Gerhard Fiedler

2004\10\16@101447 by Gerhard Fiedler

2004\10\16@102350 by Gerhard Fiedler

2004\10\16@105750 by Paul Hutchinson

2004\10\16@132145 by William Chops Westfield

2004\10\16@152511 by Peter L. Peres

2004\10\16@152530 by Peter L. Peres

On Sat, 16 Oct 2004, William Chops Westfield wrote:

>
> On Oct 15, 2004, at 5:55 PM, .....stevespam_OUTtla.co.nz wrote:
>
>> The statement "if(3==foo)" is written in the opposite way to how you
>> would describe what the statement is doing, so the statement isn't
>> immediately and inherently self documenting.
>
> I dunno.  It's just not ENGLISH.  Mathematicians will consider
> an equality statement fully reversable; "foo = 3" is precisely
> identical to "3 = foo"; one of the foundations of algebra, sort of.

Does this have anything to do with mathematicians ranting about C being
'wrong' and the 'right' way being the Pascal syntax of foo := 3 ?

Peter
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2004\10\16@154753 by Eric Bohlman

2004\10\17@023700 by hilip Stortz

2004\10\17@072948 by ?J=2E_Pe=F1a?=

On Sun, Oct 17, 2004 at 12:39:14AM -0600, Philip Stortz wrote:
> i had a college programming teacher who didn't know how to use a text
> editor!  that was my conclusion since we had to buy her class notes
> which were always hand written,
[...]

Like Dijksta...

Saludos,
                                       HoraPe
---
Horacio J. Peña
TakeThisOuThorape.....TakeThisOuTcompendium.com.ar
TakeThisOuThorapeKILLspamspamuninet.edu

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2004\10\17@125255 by Dave VanHorn

2004\10\17@140056 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

2004\10\17@141850 by Dave VanHorn

2004\10\17@143722 by Herbert Graf

2004\10\17@143735 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

2004\10\17@150351 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

2004\10\17@152806 by Wouter van Ooijen

2004\10\17@152806 by Wouter van Ooijen

2004\10\17@152807 by Wouter van Ooijen

2004\10\17@162112 by Peter L. Peres

2004\10\17@164342 by Dave VanHorn

2004\10\17@190706 by hilip Stortz

2004\10\17@192100 by hilip Stortz

2004\10\17@194127 by hilip Stortz

2004\10\17@194851 by hilip Stortz

2004\10\17@202811 by Peter L. Peres