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'[EE] Chinese processor -- is this a PIC clone?'
2019\09\01@132429 by William Couture

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part 1 920 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="utf-8" (decoded base64)

Hi Everyone!

Looking at a piece of Chinese electronics (PID controller, a "Rex-C100"), I
found a Chinese processor
that seems to be a PIC 16F88 clone (from the number), but can't find
anything else about it.
It's identified as HY16F88VB.

LCSC.COM doesn't know anything about it.

Searching Google for HY16F88 turns up a datasheet for a Hycon HY16F188 for
a digital scale, which
mentions the HY16F88, but I suspect that it is a typo.  (The Hycon 16F188
is supposed to be a
"Andes 32 Bit CPU Kernel N801 Processor" with a VCC of 2.4V and 3.6V, but
the chip I'm looking
at is running at 5V).

This is a curiosity question -- is this really a PIC clone, and what is the
ballpark price of the chip?
(Since the entire controller was $8, I'm assuming very cheap).

Thanks!
  Bill

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part 2 32096 bytes content-type:image/jpeg; name="hy16f88vb.jpg" (decode)


part 3 197 bytes content-type:text/plain; name="ATT00001.txt"
(decoded base64)

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2019\09\02@033113 by Clint Jay

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It's an odd coincidence and I don't usually believe in coincidences.

I'd hook it up to a PICKit2 or something and see if it identifies it.

On Sun, 1 Sep 2019, 18:32 William Couture, <spam_OUTbcoutureTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com> wrote:

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2019\09\02@071302 by Jason White

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Maybe microchip sold 16F88s with custom markings.

On Sunday, September 1, 2019, William Couture <.....bcoutureKILLspamspam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:

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2019\09\02@093844 by Spehro Pefhany

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There do appear to be 16F88 clones in China.

Whether they are independently packaged (maybe tested) dice that Microchip sold or copies of the silicon is hard to tell.  Either or both are possible.

For what it’s worth, that controller product is a ersatz version (not a copy) of a Japanese product by Rika Kogyo.

Best regards, SP

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2019\09\02@152940 by William Couture

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I'm not working with PICs at my job anymore, so I don't have a PICkit2 or
something similar available.

On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 3:34 AM Clint Jay <EraseMEcjaysharpspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote:

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2019\09\02@155233 by Bob Blick

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If it's a fake PIC, it might not work with any of the Microchip program/debug tools anyway.

Bob

________________________________________
From: @spam@piclist-bouncesKILLspamspammit.edu <KILLspampiclist-bouncesKILLspamspammit.edu> on behalf of William Couture
Sent: Monday, September 2, 2019 12:29 PM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [EE] Chinese processor -- is this a PIC clone?

I'm not working with PICs at my job anymore, so I don't have a PICkit2 or
something similar available.

On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 3:34 AM Clint Jay wrote:

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2019\09\02@161152 by Manu Abraham

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Hi Bob,

On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 1:24 AM Bob Blick <RemoveMEbobblickTakeThisOuTspamoutlook.com> wrote:
>
> If it's a fake PIC, it might not work with any of the Microchip program/debug tools anyway.
>
> Bob

There is one more thought. A lot of vendors do sell chips by the wafer,
without the packaging in large volumes. I don't know whether Microchip
does that, though.

Maybe someone has better insight ?

Regards,
Manu
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2019\09\02@162837 by William Couture

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I know that they are bogus copies of a Japanese controller.  But I work at
a company that makes DIN controllers (athenacontrols.com),
and I occasionally get the "current" model of some cheap controllers just
see how they work.  The last two used this HY16F88VB chip
(and, among other things, they only use 3 digits each of the 4 digit
displays to save I/O pins.  The display is Charlieplexed.)

This isn't my favorite cheap clone, that goes to another one -- the
electronics consist of a STM8S005K6 ($0.45), an LM358 ($0.03),
an OB2535 ($0.18), a bridge rectifier ($0.02), 78L05 ($0.02), a small
transformer (don't know), 2 x 4-digit 7 segment displays (2 x $0.22), 4
switches
(4 x $0.01) and various resistors, capactors (including some small
electrolytics), diodes, and a few transistors for output drivers.
Cheap single-sided PC boards (without silkscreens! And there are several 0
ohm resistors as "bridges" over traces.  The cost of half a dozen 0 ohm plus
"pick-and-place" must be cheaper than a 2 sided board) for the power and
analogs, a decent dual-sided PC board for the processor / LED / buttons.
(prices are current from LCSC.COM)

If people are interested, I can post pictures of the controller internals,
they are interesting in their own way.

It's also interesting that *ALL* of the cheap controllers use the same DIN
case (with different front-panel overlays).  They must be mass produced
*VERY* cheaply!

But, I was wondering just how cheap a 16F88 clone could be, considering the
added complexity of charlieplexed display driving over the
direct display drive of a chip like the STM8S005K6 (fewer resistors).

Also, a question for the group (while I think of it) -- what is your cost
per component for "pick-and-place"?

Thanks,
  Bill

On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 9:41 AM Spehro Pefhany <spamBeGonespeffspamBeGonespaminterlog.com> wrote:

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2019\09\02@195713 by Neil

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I've wondered if the low-cost Arduino clones (<$2) have clone
processors, or if Microchip just cuts them a heck of a deal for
significant volume.
Similarly for STM32 dev-boards like the blue pill, etc.

Cheers,
-Neil.


On 9/2/2019 4:27 PM, William Couture wrote:
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2019\09\02@210221 by RussellMc

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HY16Fxx family here.
No 16F88.
It's mentioned in a product in a 2015 Microchip forum post

https://www.hycontek.com/?s=HY16F+

Full catalog here
16F processors (32 bit) on page 14-15
F88 seems to have left the building.

             https://www.hycontek.com/wp-content/uploads/SelectionGuide.pdf


*BUT 16F188 is listed.*

But LQFP48 pkg.


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2019\09\02@214516 by William Couture

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That's what I found hycontek.com, too.

I wonder if they made some sort of deal -- "Make 1,000,000 of this clone
processor for us at $0.50 each"
so it's a specialty item not in their general catalog.

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2019\09\03@033557 by Mike Rigby-Jones

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I did think that a small PIC was an odd choice for something that very
likely uses floating point maths for its PID function.

Mike

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2019\09\03@124915 by Spehro

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They may be using fixed-point calculations, but in any case, the required bandwidth for temperature control is very low, 1-10Hz at most. My concerns with the PIC would be more related to the primitive peripherals (especially timers) and interrupt handling. There is no need for a 32-bit processor or FPU...
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