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'[EE] How to get power from Live Only UK light swit'
2009\03\02@203235 by Jim Franklin

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Hi



This is (I believe) a UK only issue due to the way we have our lighting
circuits wired.



I am trying to design my own home automation system and have hit a problem.



The controller stuff is all designed and (mostly) working, and my comms to
the control PC is good (RF).

My socket control devices are fine and dandy,  but I have hit a problem when
it comes to the lighting circuit..



In the UK we have just the Live wire going to the wall switches and I am
struggling with a way to power the controller circuit from there,

I did consider putting the electronics into the ceiling roses but that is a
lot more work than putting them in the light switch circuits.



I have read that the X10 products take some power off of the line, by
passing "some current" through the circuit at all times, but I am having
difficulty figuring out how to do this.

I did consider putting a resistor in across the switch -and taking some
"voltage dropped across it" (not sure how mind),  but wouldn't this need to
be capable of taking the whole power rating of the light fitting?



I tried having battery powered device and a home-made current sense coil
around one of the live wires to take power whilst the switch is "on" for
charging - but got a virtual zero output from that (didn't work).



Does anyone on list have any suggestions for this - bearing in mind there is
only the live connection (and earth) in the switch box - (as I said above
X10 do it somehow but I can't get this in my head yet).



Many thanks



Jim





2009\03\02@204956 by Charles Craft

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Do a Google search on "x10 schematics".

This one has entries with 220-V modifications that might help:
 http://www.laureanno.com/x10-6.html



{Original Message removed}

2009\03\02@214922 by Isaac Bavaresco

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--- Em seg, 2/3/09, Jim Franklin <spam_OUTjimfTakeThisOuTspamwebstudios.co.uk> escreveu:

{Quote hidden}

I suppose you are using a TRIAC as the switch. If so, all you need to do is to delay the TRIAC turn-on for some time just after each zero-cross of the senoid.

This way you will have some volts available each semicycle (or cycle) to power your circuit. Use a large capacitor to store energy so your circuit will not starve during the time when the TRIAC is on.

This is easy if you use a PIC. Just sense the zero-crossing and delay some time before turning the TRIAC on. You can do this even with a R/C circuit.

Please note that you will never be able to power your lamps at 100% (90% is reasonable). This is good for incandescent lamps, they will last forever. You may even implement soft turn-on to save the filaments even more. Some flourescent lamps may not like this approach though.

You will need good filtering to not violate EMI limits. In Europe you will need Power Factor Correction also.

Regards,

Isaac



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2009\03\03@013543 by Vitaliy

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Jim Franklin wrote:
> I have read that the X10 products take some power off of the line, by
> passing "some current" through the circuit at all times, but I am having
> difficulty figuring out how to do this.
>
> I did consider putting a resistor in across the switch -and taking some
> "voltage dropped across it" (not sure how mind),  but wouldn't this need
> to
> be capable of taking the whole power rating of the light fitting?

Take a look at this schematic:

http://www.maksimov.org/piclist/220v_x10_circuit.pdf

Now, I admit I've never built anything like this, but it looks like it might
work.

With the light switch in the OFF position, the current passes through the
light bulb (in the cold state, its resistance is very low), R1, and the top
diode.

With the light switch in the ON position, R1 is shorted out and voltage
develops across R2.

Notice that in this example, R1 and R2 would need to be quite large (~20W
and ~10W, respectively). However, you can use a cap in place of R1 (1.5 uF
cap has an impedance of ~2.1kOhm at 50 Hz).

Vitaliy

2009\03\03@024620 by Jim Franklin

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Excellent replies from the list and very quickly thank you.

I will try this circuit out tonight, it looks like exactly what I need.

Jim

{Original Message removed}

2009\03\03@034836 by Vitaliy

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Jim Franklin wrote:
> I will try this circuit out tonight, it looks like exactly what I need.

Jim, please -- be very careful. As I said, I've never built anything like
this myself, and I'm fairly certain the circuit will *not* work exactly as
drawn.

220V can be deadly.

Vitaliy

2009\03\03@061057 by Jim Franklin

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Absolutely,
having been a service engineer for many many years (although I moved onto
pastures new a long time ago), I have entertained many electrons passing
unexpectedly through my body!




On Tue, 3 Mar 2009 01:46:52 -0700, Vitaliy wrote
{Quote hidden}

> --

2009\03\03@134319 by Richard Prosser

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2009/3/4 Jim Franklin <.....jimfKILLspamspam.....webstudios.co.uk>:
> Absolutely,
> having been a service engineer for many many years (although I moved onto
> pastures new a long time ago), I have entertained many electrons passing
> unexpectedly through my body!
>

Lucky you. Some people only get it to happen once in their whole life.

RP

2009\03\03@155321 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 6:43 PM, Richard Prosser <EraseMErhprosserspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote:

> Lucky you. Some people only get it to happen once in their whole life.
>

Depends on conditions of course, voltage is only a voltage, when you get off
your pullover your body experiencing 10k Volts with those sparks. The only
thing is that at given body resistance the current is half when touching the
110V mains. I touched 220V mains many times in my life (did not count it but
I'd say like 20 times). Even recently I did it while was measuring an ATX
PSU, and I really do not like it. I will build a separator transformer next
time dealing with a PSU, I was just too lazy doing that, so that was my
fault (again)  :-)

Tamas
--
Rudonix DoubleSaver
http://www.rudonix.com

2009\03\03@162004 by Jim Franklin

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I must admit to being a BIT more haphazard with my testing techniques and
this is something I REALLY must stop doing...

When checking if something is really off, I tentatively touch the live feed,
sometimes it's off, and sometimes it's not. As I get older I am supposed to
get wiser, so I have to stop doing it.

{Original Message removed}

2009\03\03@170845 by Eoin Ross

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Do yourselves (and your loved ones) a favour. This thing is only US$11 !!

It could save your life!  Unless of course you work with high voltage DC...

www.thenerds.net/STEREN.Inductive_Voltage_Detector.602805.html?affid=8&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=602805%5E~%5ESTEREN
100-240V AC range, Non-contact inductive detector, 1/4" detection range, LED and tone indicators

More expensive (US$40)  ... but a better lower detection value

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000WU12A
AC Voltage/Current Detector, Voltage Range 12 to 600, Current Range 200 mA to 1000 A, Safety Rating CAT III, 600V

>>> "Jim Franklin" <jimfspamspam_OUTwebstudios.co.uk> 03 Mar 09 16:19:52 >>>
I must admit to being a BIT more haphazard with my testing techniques and
this is something I REALLY must stop doing...

When checking if something is really off, I tentatively touch the live feed,
sometimes it's off, and sometimes it's not. As I get older I am supposed to
get wiser, so I have to stop doing it.

{Original Message removed}

2009\03\03@180118 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
I meant something like this:

(take a look at the PeakTech® 2240)
http://www.peaktech.de/sessions/JsynKbv98QOV8evrWjom/en/products/?TopCatalog=56&SubCatalog=&ScanCatalog=56

Tamas


On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 10:07 PM, Eoin Ross <@spam@erossKILLspamspamchemstation.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2009\03\03@191532 by Jim Franklin

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Isn't that what insurance is for (joking of course)



-----Original Message-----
From: RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspammit.edu [spamBeGonepiclist-bouncesspamBeGonespammit.edu] On Behalf Of
Tamas Rudnai
Sent: 03 March 2009 23:01
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [EE] How to get power from Live Only UK light switch

I meant something like this:

(take a look at the PeakTechR 2240)
www.peaktech.de/sessions/JsynKbv98QOV8evrWjom/en/products/?TopCatalog
=56&SubCatalog=&ScanCatalog=56

Tamas


On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 10:07 PM, Eoin Ross <TakeThisOuTerossEraseMEspamspam_OUTchemstation.com> wrote:

> Do yourselves (and your loved ones) a favour. This thing is only US$11 !!
>
> It could save your life!  Unless of course you work with high voltage
DC...
>
>
>
www.thenerds.net/STEREN.Inductive_Voltage_Detector.602805.html?affid=
8&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=602805%5E~%5ESTEREN
>
100-240V<www.thenerds.net/STEREN.Inductive_Voltage_Detector.602805.ht
ml?affid=8&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=602805%5E%7E%5ESTEREN%0A100-240V>AC range,
Non-contact inductive detector, 1/4" detection range, LED and tone
{Quote hidden}

to
{Quote hidden}

next
> time dealing with a PSU, I was just too lazy doing that, so that was my
> fault (again)  :-)
>
> Tamas
> --
> Rudonix DoubleSaver
> http://www.rudonix.com
> -

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