Post by thread:[EE] RF mains switches

Has anyone had a play with these - <http://www.altronics.com.au/index.asp?area=item&id=A0340>. Lots of people seems to be selling them, plenty on eBay as well. There seem to be variations in casing (<http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MS6134>), so maybe more than one mfg? Other bits too, see <http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MS6138> & <http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MS6136>. Frequency is 433.92MHz, as expected, and can switch either 1000W @ 240V (4A) or 10A, depending on whose advert you read. I'd assume these are available world-wide. I was contemplating remote controlling a few things, but with the price of these, should I bother making something? These prices are less than the bare RF modules... Well, I might bother making one for a fan (to control speed), but I could hack one of these to make the speed control a off-low-med-high-off sequence, rather than on/off & up/down. Tony

Tony Smith wrote: > Frequency is 433.92MHz, as expected, and can switch either 1000W @ 240V (4A) > or 10A, depending on whose advert you read. I'd assume these are available > world-wide. Yes they are, I've seen similar things here in Italy. Apart from the joy deriving from making yours :-) I'd not buy something which can't be computer-controlled, and of which I don't have/know the protocol Of course, if it's a one for all solution, they're pretty ok. But for complete domotic I'd not use them. -- Ciao, Dario

> > Frequency is 433.92MHz, as expected, and can switch either 1000W @ > > 240V (4A) or 10A, depending on whose advert you read. I'd assume > > these are available world-wide. > > Yes they are, I've seen similar things here in Italy. > Apart from the joy deriving from making yours :-) I'd not buy > something which can't be computer-controlled, and of which I > don't have/know the protocol Of course, if it's a one for all > solution, they're pretty ok. > But for complete domotic I'd not use them. To be honest, I'd prefer infra-red. For what I want to control, I'd like to be there (not in the next room) so I can see what happens. The adverts for these are a bit confusing. I gather the remote sends 8 codes, to control 4 devices, so 4 'ons' & 4 'offs'. That's handy, having toggles (like TV on/off) on an RF remote would be silly (& negates my IR choice!). One picture I saw had an A/B switch on the remote though... I'm assuming these remotes are similar to the 433Mhz modules you can buy, in that case you could modify them to add more functions. As you say, just what is the protocol? Might be like old RC cars that sent tones and annoyed CB fans. Speaking of which, the newer ones (esp the micro cars) have potential. The last IR remote I made worked like that. The remote generated a 'tone' on a 38k carrier, and an IR detector, tone decoder (NE567), flip-flop & relay made up the sensor. Well, it was a while back. One advantage of IR is the remote only needs one button (if there aren't multiple device in the area). I'm putting in a few ceiling fans (& exhaust), and I'm using "I couldn't be bothered to run new wiring & switches" as my excuse for this. For those who saw the .au on my email and are thinking 'eh, you're six months late, stupid Aussies, always behind", you be surprised at how well they warm up a house in winter. And I'm not looking forward to the summer/winter switch discussion, even the mfgs get that wrong (or they've given up). Price-wise, you get a remote & single control for $AU25. Extra controls are $AU17 (I think) in packs of 4. Usually story, parts will cost me more than that. Having the controls plug into sockets (not hard-wired) isn't an issue, AU wiring for fans (like bathroom exhaust fans) is you install an outlet in the roof, and simply plug the fan into it. The authorities might take a dim view if I plug in a powerboard with some extension leads. Mind you, that would be better than what's up there (that metal tubing & foam stuff), but the phrase 'are you taking the piss?' spring to mind. Tony

Tony Smith wrote: > The adverts for these are a bit confusing. I gather the remote sends 8 > codes, to control 4 devices, so 4 'ons' & 4 'offs'. That's handy, having > toggles (like TV on/off) on an RF remote would be silly (& negates my IR > choice!). One picture I saw had an A/B switch on the remote though... FWIW, the Altronics device seems to be able to control 8 devices (that's what they say, at least). It has this On/Off switch, which may control the function of the 8 switches. It's probably not too difficult to computer-control them: just solder a few wires into the remote :) Gerhard

Tony Smith wrote: > To be honest, I'd prefer infra-red. For what I want to control, I'd like to > be there (not in the next room) so I can see what happens. This is a point, indeed. Maybe a feedback from the receiver, confirming that command was executed, could be as good. I mean, I'd not use infrared since they can't pass walls :-) > The adverts for these are a bit confusing. I gather the remote sends 8 > codes, to control 4 devices, so 4 'ons' & 4 'offs'. That's handy, having > [...] Yep, true > I'm assuming these remotes are similar to the 433Mhz modules you can buy, in > that case you could modify them to add more functions. As you say, just > what is the protocol? Might be like old RC cars that sent tones and annoyed > CB fans. maybe. Or just a simple protocol. > The last IR remote I made worked like that. The remote generated a 'tone' > on a 38k carrier, and an IR detector, tone decoder (NE567), flip-flop & > relay made up the sensor. Yes, this is the basic method, maybe from the '80s :-) > I'm putting in a few ceiling fans (& exhaust), and I'm using "I couldn't be > bothered to run new wiring & switches" as my excuse for this. For those who > saw the .au on my email and are thinking 'eh, you're six months late, stupid > Aussies, always behind", you be surprised at how well they warm up a house > in winter. And I'm not looking forward to the summer/winter switch > discussion, even the mfgs get that wrong (or they've given up). No, I did not notice it :-) Ok, if you'll use it just for controlling the fan, then everything ok with any of the above methods. > Usually story, parts will cost me more than that. Ok. Then I'm not advicing you go ZigBee... :-) If your needs are just those, then the switches you showed are pretty ok. But, if you want to develop something with Pics and such, which actually will cost *much* more as for prototypes but may cost about the same in large scale, I'd tell you use a 18F PIC and a Nordic 2401 transceiver, put there some bytes, and have something that can send as many commands as you desire, read back status (even analog measurement), and have multiple tx/multiple rx at the same time. And, of course, be interfaced to a PC (maybe via USB). -- Ciao, Dario

I want remote control, not computer control. Why would I computer control a ceiling fan (apart from saying I've done it)? X-10 doesn't seem to be really popular in Australia, at $40 for the RF remote, $80 for the receiver & another $80 per switch, it's no wonder. These look like what I want. As is, they have 8 channels, with separate on/off commands (so 16 cmds all up). I got a message off list saying they use the MC145026/27/28 chips, which are pretty common in remotes (even Wouter sells them!). For where I want better than simple on/off, these are easy to hack. I can also re-use the cases for some no-volt (magnetic) switches. He also pointed me at cheaper source - http://www.rockby.com.au, $AU18 a pair. Tony > Not to put too fine a point on it but this is early stage > X-10. I know I'm going to hear about X-10 reliability on > this one but if one follows simple building set-up, it is > ultra-reliable and bidirectional. Off the shelf and > available in a jillion versions. > > Rich > > {Original Message removed}

Tony Smith wrote: > I want remote control, not computer control. Why would I computer control a > ceiling fan (apart from saying I've done it)? Sure, Tony. But those RF modules can be made working with a PIC and some simple buttons. USB cames later if you ever need it. You may want to computer control or rather "network-aware", when, for example, you want to auto activate them according to temperature outside or anyway at the floor (and not at the ceiling). I know you may not care a thing about this all :-) I was just suggesting since I love these kind of things ! -- Ciao, Dario

> > I want remote control, not computer control. Why would I computer > > control a ceiling fan (apart from saying I've done it)? > > Sure, Tony. > But those RF modules can be made working with a PIC and some > simple buttons. USB cames later if you ever need it. > > You may want to computer control or rather "network-aware", > when, for example, you want to auto activate them according > to temperature outside or anyway at the floor (and not at the > ceiling). > I know you may not care a thing about this all :-) I was just > suggesting since I love these kind of things ! > > Ciao, Dario My basic criteria was cheap, simple, no wiring, no bashing holes in wall, and hackable at both remote & receiver ends. Since I know that they use MC145026/27/28, these fit the bill. Especially on cheap. A single X-10 switch is ~$200 + ~$80 per switch, these are ~$20 + ~$10 per switch. It's a hard decision. :) Yes, I know I can expand these to sing & dance. I know X-10 is 'better'. I used to be a fan of house automation, but these days I couldn't be bothered. My sole piece of automation is a small hallway lamp plugged into a timer (mechanical, no less). It switches on around 6pm, and off at midnight. Stops me tripping over things when I come home in the dark, unless it's a late night (& then I tend to fall over anyway). Yeah, pathetic, I know. It's ok, I've got CNC stuff to make up for it! These are for someone else as well, so an uncomplicated solution is needed. The only hacking I'll be doing to these is modifying the recievers to control fan speed. Multiple presses of the 'On' button will change the fan speed from low, medium then high. All I need is to put a bit of extra logic at the MC145028 output, maybe even as simple as a decade counter. I need to read up on the MC145026, and buy some of these to see how they switch the mains. How hard can it be? :) Tony

> > > > I want remote control, not computer control > > ('scuse me if I'm not up-to-date with the thread) > > Have you looked at the ZW3100 / ZW3102 433MHz pair from Jaycar ? > > NZ price is $11 each but can be got cheaper in quantity, > especially through Electus I did, but if all you want is on/off control and this <http://www.altronics.com.au/index.asp?area=item&id=A0340> is only $AU25, pricewise you think "Hmmmmm". Factor in the nice cases.... <http://www.rockby.com.au> have them for $AU18, and Jaycar sell other compatible bits as well. All I really wanted to know is what I'd find if I opened one up. The answer was old cheap tech, not a new-fangled black blob. Tony