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'[EE] The 3 cent microcontroller'
2019\08\06@111010 by Harold Hallikainen

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{Quote hidden}

I agree! My first computer experience was an IBM 360 in college. We'd turn
in our deck of punched cards, come back 12 hours later for our printout of
errors. There was also a model 28 Teletype connected to a timeshare
computer running Basic. I then started building stuff with 7400 series
logic. I built stuff to drive a Teletype model 15. UARTs either did not
exist or I didn't know about them, so I put a bunch of 8 bit shift
registers in series to generate a sequence of characters to drive the
model 15. Next, in college, worked a little with the Intel 8008. It took a
TON of support chips. Then an 8080 development board. A friend got a
MC6800 development board (with LED display and keyboard). I then built my
first computer (wire wrapped) with the Motorola MC6802. It used a bunch of
1k x 4 RAM chips. I bought a Sunrise Electronics EPROM programmer and
programmed the system in hex. I used a Lear Siegler ADM-1 terminal to talk
to it. Built a "Kansas City" cassette tape interface (modem). Bought an
integer Basic interpreter from Southwest Technical Products. Signed up
with The Source timeshare service to use their 6800 compiler. I'd type in
my source code and get back a hex file to put in the EPROM programmer.
Bought a Cromemco Z-80 S-100 computer from a guy at Apple. It had two 5.25
floppy drives, but CP/M software was distributed on 8 inch floppies, so I
added a couple of those. I got an MC6800 assembler to run on the Cromemco.
Next, for the product I had in mind, I needed a floating point Basic
compiler. So, I licensed one from Microsoft, a partnership of Bill Gates
and Paul Allen. My license is at
http://bh.hallikainen.org//wiki/uploads/harold/MsLicense801210.pdf . This
led to the PCC-180 and DRC-190 described at
http://bh.hallikainen.org/wiki/index.php?pagename=HallikainenAndFriends .
The PCC-180 circuit boards were laid out on mylar film with tape. The
DRC-190 schematic capture and board layout were done with a CAD system
from Dasoft that ran under CP/M. I still have the Houston Instruments
DMP-29 plotter used to plot schematics and boards. The first
microcontroller I saw was the Motorola MC6805. I experimented with it a
bit, then sold my company. The new company wanted to use PICs, so I got
started with them. First with ceramic packages an UV erasure. Then one
time programmable (UV chip in plastic package), then flash. Most of my
work now is PIC32MX with code in C or PIC24H, also in C. I've also got a
PIC16 project I did 10 years ago (in assembly) that I'm currently
updating. The chip requires the debug header, and I'm working on getting
that working.

So, that's what I've seen over the past 50 years since graduating high
school. A LOT has changed. But, I think a lot changed over the previous 50
years also.

By the way, I see you are in Boulder. I work from home in Arvada, so we're
neighbors! I'm in Boulder every couple weeks (like this evening).

Harold



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2019\08\06@141933 by Harold Hallikainen

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>
> By the way, I see you are in Boulder. I work from home in Arvada, so we're
> neighbors! I'm in Boulder every couple weeks (like this evening).
>
>
> For some reason, I always thought you were in some scandanavian country.
> Dunno why.
> I know Gus is somewhere around here too.
> We should do a get-together!
>
> I met Olin at Masters, great conversation, and as always he's brilliant.

Well, my name is Finnish, so that makes sense. But, I was in San Luis
Obispo CA for about 45 years, and now in Arvada. I'm actually assigned to
the QSC Boulder office, but I work half time from home. Yes, we should get
together! I am in Boulder every other Friday for a contra dance
(http://www.cfootmad.org ) and could come early some time.

Harold


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2019\08\06@162625 by Harold Hallikainen

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> Until recently, I was working for Toni Leskela here at BCA.  He left, but
> he was a great guy to work for, and fascinating stories of his time in the
> Finnish army.  He also turned me on to the story of Lauri Torni.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauri_T%C3%B6rni  For those who don't know
> yet.
> Decorated by Finland, Nazi Germany, and the USA!   I think he may be the
> only person ever with that distinction.
>
>
> --
> David VanHorn
> Lead Hardware Engineer
>
> Backcountry Access, Inc.


Wow! Quite a story! My father grew up in Finland (though born in Chicago)
and knew much more about its history.

Harold

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2019\08\14@083642 by David Van Horn

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boingboing-net.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/boingboing.net/2019/08/13/what-are-3-cent-microcontrolle.html/amp?amp_js_v=0.1

Interesting that you can buy a computer for less than it costs to put it on the PCB.

--
David VanHorn
Lead Hardware Engineer

Backcountry Access, Inc.
2820 Wilderness Pl, Unit H
Boulder, CO  80301 USA
phone: 303-417-1345  x110
email: .....david.vanhornKILLspamspam@spam@backcountryaccess.com<david.vanhornspamKILLspambackcountryaccess.com>

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2019\08\14@154613 by mike brown

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If this is the same chip that I saw on some EE youtube channel, it's not
that bad.  In fact the instruction set is wayyy more user friendly than
the low-end PIC, or at least not as sadistic.  It seems to have
architecture that is easily adaptable to a C compiler.  IIRC, the IDE
isn't bad and contains a C compiler.  For non-critical functions, it seems
reasonable, especially for $0.03/each in bulk.

{Original Message removed}

2019\08\15@195154 by Jason White

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Has anyone used it?

On Wednesday, August 14, 2019, David Van Horn <
.....david.vanhornKILLspamspam.....backcountryaccess.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2019\08\15@203626 by Bob Blick

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Hard to imagine getting a reel of 3000 microcontrollers for a hundred bucks!

________________________________________
From: @spam@piclist-bouncesKILLspamspammit.edu <KILLspampiclist-bouncesKILLspamspammit.edu> on behalf of Jason White Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 4:50 PM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [EE] The 3 cent microcontroller

Has anyone used it?

On Wednesday, August 14, 2019, David Van Horn wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2019\08\15@203626 by William Westfield

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> Has anyone used it?

There was relatively extensive discussion  of the Padauk  chips on EEVBlog, both Dave doing a video segment (he bought/acquired some of the chips, and the emulator/programmer pod), and forum members going whole hog to reverse engineer details that weren’t published, including the instruction formats and programming methods (leading to an OSHW/SW device programmer, and possible SDCC support.)

www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/3-cent-mcu/
https://youtu.be/r45r4rV5JOI
www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1141-padauk-3-cent-micro-programmer/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1144-padauk-programmer-reverse-engineering/


> the instruction set is wayyy more user friendly than the low-end PIC, or at least not as sadistic.

The Padauk chips are more-or-less similar to the 12bit PIC16s (PIC10/PIC12), except they added an extra bit to the instruction word, permitting them to do away with some of the more egregious flash and data banking issues.
(“What?  There’s nothing wrong with have a 13-bit instruction width!  It’s PRIME stuff!”)


> It seems to have architecture that is easily adaptable to a C compiler.

I wouldn’t go THAT far.


> IIRC, the IDE isn't bad and contains a C compiler.

Since I was curious, I tried out the IDE (but haven’t bought any chips.  I already have too-large a stash of cheap low-end microcontrollers.)  The language is “min-C”, which is somewhat C-like, but won’t make any C programmers very happy (thus the activity in adding support in SDCC.)
I found the IDE to be sort of stunningly-nice, considering.  Far better-than-average Chinglish help files, very compact and zippy (especially compared to behemoths like AS7 or MPLABX), an interesting set of example programs...

I’m not sure how Padauk feels about all the attention.  They seemed to have gone to some lengths to hide some of the data that has since been published.

BillW

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2019\08\16@071225 by RussellMc

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On Fri, 16 Aug 2019 at 12:37, Bob Blick <RemoveMEbobblickTakeThisOuTspamoutlook.com> wrote:

> Hard to imagine getting a reel of 3000 microcontrollers for a hundred
> bucks!
>

Indeed a good price per reel.
But you'd probably have an MOQ around 300 reels - after all, that's a
*volume* price :-).



 Russell
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2019\08\16@093743 by David Van Horn

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I think it's fascinating how far we've come during my career.   The first thing of this nature that I remember being exposed to was the 74181 in a magazine article, then the various S-100 machines, and at the time those were crazy expensive.   I have an Altair clone on my desk by Briel computing that emulates the Altair on an AVR, and even runs the original Basic from Bill Gates.  ðŸ˜Š     At Masters, I kept thinking of that quote from Arthur Clarke, "Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".


--
David VanHorn
Lead Hardware Engineer

Backcountry Access, Inc.
2820 Wilderness Pl, Unit H
Boulder, CO  80301 USA
phone: 303-417-1345  x110
email: spamBeGonedavid.vanhornspamBeGonespambackcountryaccess.com 



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2019\08\16@124032 by Denny Esterline

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>
>
> > Hard to imagine getting a reel of 3000 microcontrollers for a hundred
> > bucks!
> >
>
> Indeed a good price per reel.
> But you'd probably have an MOQ around 300 reels - after all, that's a
> *volume* price :-).
>
>
> I'm sure that was in jest, but this web site:
lcsc.com/product-detail/PADAUK_PADAUK-Tech-PMS150C-U06_C168658.html
Seems to have a MOQ of 10 pieces. Though they have a $15 "handling fee" for
orders under $15. Which seems to make the minimum sensible order 510 pcs
for $15.25 plus $2.44 USPS shipping to the US.

It is indeed a strange time to live.

-Denny
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2019\08\16@131843 by Neil Cherry

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On 8/16/19 11:34 AM, Harold Hallikainen wrote:

> I agree! My first computer experience was an IBM 360 in college. We'd turn
> in our deck of punched cards, come back 12 hours later for our printout of

....

> So, that's what I've seen over the past 50 years since graduating high
> school. A LOT has changed. But, I think a lot changed over the previous 50
> years also.

40+ years since high school, Doing SDN QA work now (what a strange and
interesting beast software defined networks are).

Did the card desks (always number and stripe your cards). I think I still
have chaff in my hair (but it might be paper tape chaff).

Fortunate enough to be a member of the Vintage Computer Federation. Though
I still being called a MARCHian. :-) I have access to lots of vintage
computers and replicas at home. AGC in FPGA and a DSKY replica.

And at the other end of the spectrum a $15 Raspbery Pi Zero W. Unix
on a stick and pretty much any programming language your want. WiFi
uController for $5 and now bulk $0.03 controllers. My head is spinning.

-- Linux Home Automation         Neil Cherry       TakeThisOuTncherryEraseMEspamspam_OUTlinuxha.com
http://www.linuxha.com/                         Main site
http://linuxha.blogspot.com/                    My HA Blog
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2019\08\16@142319 by Dr Skip

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>...building stuff with 7400 series
>logic. I built stuff to drive a Teletype model 15. UARTs >either did not exist or I didn't know about them…

Same here. When UARTs came out I remember thinking it was the best thing ever  ;)  and hard to get for a while, so kept protected like one might do for a cpu these days.

-Dr Skip



On August 16, 2019 11:34:30 AM EDT, Harold Hallikainen <RemoveMEharoldspamTakeThisOuTmai.hallikainen.org> wrote:
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2019\08\16@145844 by David Van Horn

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By the way, I see you are in Boulder. I work from home in Arvada, so we're
neighbors! I'm in Boulder every couple weeks (like this evening).


For some reason, I always thought you were in some scandanavian country.  Dunno why. I know Gus is somewhere around here too.
We should do a get-together!

I met Olin at Masters, great conversation, and as always he's brilliant.




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2019\08\16@153545 by David Van Horn

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Until recently, I was working for Toni Leskela here at BCA.  He left, but he was a great guy to work for, and fascinating stories of his time in the Finnish army.  He also turned me on to the story of Lauri Torni.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauri_T%C3%B6rni  For those who don't know yet.
Decorated by Finland, Nazi Germany, and the USA!   I think he may be the only person ever with that distinction.

--
David VanHorn
Lead Hardware Engineer

Backcountry Access, Inc.
2820 Wilderness Pl, Unit H
Boulder, CO  80301 USA
phone: 303-417-1345  x110
email: david.vanhornEraseMEspam.....backcountryaccess.com 


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2019\08\17@074431 by RussellMc

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On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 07:38, David Van Horn <
EraseMEdavid.vanhornspambackcountryaccess.com> wrote:

> Until recently, I was working for Toni Leskela here at BCA.  He left, but
> he was a great guy to work for, and fascinating stories of his time in the
> Finnish army.  He also turned me on to the story of Lauri Torni.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauri_T%C3%B6rni  For those who don't know
> yet.
> Decorated by Finland, Nazi Germany, and the USA!   I think he may be the
> only person ever with that distinction.
>

The only ex member of the Waffen SS to be buried in Arlington!
A deserved honour.


           Russell
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2019\08\17@084011 by RussellMc

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On Thu, 15 Aug 2019 at 00:40, David Van Horn <
RemoveMEdavid.vanhornEraseMEspamEraseMEbackcountryaccess.com> wrote:

>
> https://boingboing-net.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/boingboing.net/2019/08/13/what-are-3-cent-microcontrolle.html/amp?amp_js_v=0.1
>
> Interesting that you can buy a computer for less than it costs to put it
> on the PCB.
>
>
Agh. Black hole.
That's all the warning you get :-) ...

Selector guide - 57 Padauk uC parts
With pricings in 10 100 1000 10000 120000 quantities (and intermediates)
Less than 2:1 change betwixt 10 and 120000 quantities.

               https://lcsc.com/products/PADAUK_11011.html

____________________

3c uC -
https://lcsc.com/product-detail/PADAUK_PADAUK-Tech-PMS150C-U06_C168658.html

One example:

For only a little more [tm] (about 3x ) than the 3c uC you get the 10 cent
uC.
10c 8c 7.6c in 10 100 4000 quantity.
SOP/DIP 14-16, OTP, 2.2-5.5V (eg happy on a LiIon 1 cell battery.
Pgm-1kword, 88B RAM,
12 x 12bit ADC, Ref, 8x8 mult, Brownout (programmable 8 levels)
14 I/O (all can be configured for wakeup)
DC to 2/4/8 MHz at Vdd = 2.2, 2.5, 3.1 V.
Ioperate: 1.7 mA/MIPS at 5V, 15 uA at 21 kHz LC clock at 3.3V.
Sleep 1-2 uA.
1 x 16 bit timer, 2 x 8 bit timer with PWM.
......

English data sheet -
https://www.semiee.com/file/Source10/PADAUK-PMS131-S14.pdf

____________________________________

The distributor LCSC - https://lcsc.com/about.html#/about/company
Parts guaranteed legitimate

Brands (!)   https://lcsc.com/about.html#/about/authorized_brand

Productssssssssssssssssssssssssssss  https://lcsc.com/

30ish uC manufacturers.

eg Microchip - 1085 parts

            https://lcsc.com/products/MICROCHIP_471.html

eg DCDC conv  2358 parts
https://lcsc.com/products/DC-DC-Converters_484.html

eg DCDC boost variableout -
https://lcsc.com/products/DC-DC-Converters_484.html

eg 8c/500 boost 2V-24Vin  2.5-28 Vout
lcsc.com/product-detail/_hengjiaxing-HX3608_C296278.html
3.5A switch ...


Vastly more ...................

Shipping:
Global Shipping and Services. We serve customers from all over the world.
DHL, Fedex, EMS, USPS and other logistics partners on site -- Available to
200+ countries

They even show NZ as one of 9 example destinations on their map  :-)
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2019\08\17@085206 by Octavio Nogueira

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part 1 3343 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="utf-8" (decoded base64)

Does anybody know how to write this little beast? LCSC has the writer but
how to program as they have only 6 pins?


*Octavio Nogueira*

*Sr. Electronics Engineer*

*Delta International Industries. LLC*

*(631) 238-7035*

*E-mail: RemoveMEonogueiraspam_OUTspamKILLspamdeltalock.biz <RemoveMEonogueiraTakeThisOuTspamspamdeltalock.biz>*

[image: A close up of a logo Description automatically generated]

[image: Mailtrack]

Remetente
notificado por
Mailtrack

08/17/19,
09:48:46 AM

Em sáb, 17 de ago de 2019 às 09:41, RussellMc <EraseMEapptechnzspamspamspamBeGonegmail.com>
escreveu:

> On Thu, 15 Aug 2019 at 00:40, David Van Horn <
> RemoveMEdavid.vanhornKILLspamspambackcountryaccess.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> boingboing-net.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/boingboing.net/2019/08/13/what-are-3-cent-microcontrolle.html/amp?amp_js_v=0.1
> >
> > Interesting that you can buy a computer for less than it costs to put it
> > on the PCB.
> >
> >
> Agh. Black hole.
> That's all the warning you get :-) ...
>
> Selector guide - 57 Padauk uC parts
> With pricings in 10 100 1000 10000 120000 quantities (and intermediates)
> Less than 2:1 change betwixt 10 and 120000 quantities.
>
>                 https://lcsc.com/products/PADAUK_11011.html
>
> ____________________
>
> 3c uC -
> lcsc.com/product-detail/PADAUK_PADAUK-Tech-PMS150C-U06_C168658.html
>
> One example:
>
> For only a little more [tm] (about 3x ) than the 3c uC you get the 10 cent
> uC.
> 10c 8c 7.6c in 10 100 4000 quantity.
> SOP/DIP 14-16, OTP, 2.2-5.5V (eg happy on a LiIon 1 cell battery.
> Pgm-1kword, 88B RAM,
> 12 x 12bit ADC, Ref, 8x8 mult, Brownout (programmable 8 levels)
> 14 I/O (all can be configured for wakeup)
> DC to 2/4/8 MHz at Vdd = 2.2, 2.5, 3.1 V.
> Ioperate: 1.7 mA/MIPS at 5V, 15 uA at 21 kHz LC clock at 3.3V.
> Sleep 1-2 uA.
> 1 x 16 bit timer, 2 x 8 bit timer with PWM.
> .....
>
> English data sheet -
> www.semiee.com/file/Source10/PADAUK-PMS131-S14.pdf
>
> ____________________________________
>
> The distributor LCSC - https://lcsc.com/about.html#/about/company
> Parts guaranteed legitimate
>
> Brands (!)   lcsc.com/about.html#/about/authorized_brand
>
> Productssssssssssssssssssssssssssss  https://lcsc.com/
>
> 30ish uC manufacturers.
>
> eg Microchip - 1085 parts
>
>              https://lcsc.com/products/MICROCHIP_471.html
>
> eg DCDC conv  2358 parts
> lcsc.com/products/DC-DC-Converters_484.html
>
> eg DCDC boost variableout -
> lcsc.com/products/DC-DC-Converters_484.html
>
> eg 8c/500 boost 2V-24Vin  2.5-28 Vout
> lcsc.com/product-detail/_hengjiaxing-HX3608_C296278.html
> 3.5A switch ...
>
>
> Vastly more ...................
>
> Shipping:
> Global Shipping and Services. We serve customers from all over the world.
> DHL, Fedex, EMS, USPS and other logistics partners on site -- Available to
> 200+ countries
>
> They even show NZ as one of 9 example destinations on their map  :-)
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>

part 2 6119 bytes content-type:image/png; name="image001.png" (decode)


part 3 197 bytes content-type:text/plain; name="ATT00001.txt"
(decoded base64)

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2019\08\17@131234 by Forrest Christian (List Account) n/a

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There is a thread over on the eevblog forum where they've reverse
engineered a lot of the programming of this chip.

I'm assuming it's a lot like the 6 pin microchip parts in that some of the
pins are used during programming.  Because this is one time programmable,
I'm guessing that these are typically programmed before they are soldered
in place.

On Sat, Aug 17, 2019, 6:01 AM Octavio Nogueira <nogueiraSTOPspamspamspam_OUTtato.ind.br> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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