Post by thread:[OT]: Hello again

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PICList Thread
'[OT]: Hello again'
2004\07\17@115207 by Olin Lathrop

Hi, folks. I've decided to resubscribe to the PIClist, at least for a while. I suspected all along that James could only remove someone from the list, and didn't have the means to actually ban them. Even if he did, coming back as a different email address would be trivial. I didn't bother earlier because I couldn't see a reason to. Yeah, the PIClist is a fun diversion, but can also be a time sink. I've come back because I've got a few things to announce. One is a do it yourself hobby programmer I'll be sending an AD message about shortly, but there are a few other things that may be useful to PIC users. I'll wait a little while to see if James gets an itchy trigger finger first. About getting bounced from the list: I looked in the archives and saw a large number of messages about this after James kicked me off the list, so I think I have the right to say what I think too (Yes James, it's tagged OT). First, I was surprised by James' action. I thought my post WAS toned down a bit from previous ones. I didn't ask if mommy knew he was playing with the 'puter again, or cast dispersions on his heritage. All I did was tell the guy he was "being an idiot". C'mon now, did anyone really think I meant that his IQ was below some specific threshold level? Of course not. It's just a manner of speaking which means pretty much "you did something stupid". If you can't get over people occasionally calling you an "idiot", "moron", or "bozo", then you don't belong on the internet or most anywhere else in society. Get over it. Second, I don't think most people, including this guy, want to be percieved as posting stupid messages. Therefore, telling them their message was percieved as stupid or idiotic is doing them a favor. Maybe they weren't aware how others would perceive it and try to not do that in the future. If they still think their message was correct, just ignore what I said. Big deal. If they are really hot and bothered about it, tell me I was being an idiot for reacting that way. Again, big deal. I'd probably find that entertaining. Third, James' claim of having warned me is a bit misleading. I had posted a number of worse (at least according to what I think James' scale is) replies than that over a bunch of years. Sometimes I would get a nastygram from James about how I shouldn't do this or that, or tone it down a bit. This message WAS toned down from other ones that didn't elicit the same response, so I thought it was a bit unfair to suddenly redefine what was acceptable and bounce me off the list when I had every reason to think that message was acceptable. Fourth, James made a bit of a tactical error. If he wanted to lower the bar on acceptable messages by making a public example, that could have been accomplished with less disruption by "banning" me for a week or something. If I remember right, I was in the middle of a tight project and it probably would have taken more than a week for me to get around to resubscribing anyway. I think James just gets disproportionally pissed off about these relatively trivial issues in the scheme of things, and his knee jerked before his brain engaged. Anyway, I'll leave OT enabled for a few days until I head off to Masters. Anyone else going to Masters? ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

2004\07\17@124746 by David VanHorn

Hey there! I for one am glad to see you back. While you've been gone, the group went out and bought >1000 AVR processors! -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

2004\07\17@134133 by Wouter van Ooijen

Hi Olin 1. I am glad you are back. 2. I hope you will behave yet retain your critcaster role. 3. Don't be mislead by people protesting James' discison. I disagreed, but I would vote him (and his running mates, or maybe it is the other way round) for president any time. Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

2004\07\17@135415 by Alexandre Guimaraes

It is nice to have you back... Please try to keep it a little coller.. I hope James gives all of us the opportunity to have your expertise available to the list again. We already lost too many... Best regards, Alexandre Guimaraes -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

2004\07\17@144151 by Satyadev Vyas

Welcome back. Satyadev Vyas -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

2004\07\17@160729 by Larry G. Nelson Sr.

Hi. Glad to see you back again. I will be at the Masters again. I haven't missed one yet. Larry {Quote hidden}>Anyway, I'll leave OT enabled for a few days until I head off to Masters. >Anyone else going to Masters? > > >***************************************************************** >Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts >(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com > >-- >http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different >ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. Larry G. Nelson Sr. spam_OUTL.NelsonTakeThisOuTieee.org http://www.mchipguru.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

2004\07\17@192345 by James Newton, Host

1. Welcome back! I am truly happy to have you and relieved that you have decided to come back. I missed you. 2. I most certainly CAN ban people from the list, and chose not to do so to you. Yes, you can fake who you are, but you can't prevent yourself from being dropped again and again if you act like a jerk. I have any number of volunteers who have already offered to watch for and drop any new subscriber who is insulting to others. 3. After you left, the list was just as active, newbie questions still got answered, AND there was little if any rudeness. Also, despite coming into spring and summer, our subscription rate is up. This breaks a trend. People like a friendly list and there are plenty of smart, knowledgeable and NICE engineers on this list. 4. It is NOT, NOT, NOT your job to "teach by embarrassment" as you seem to like to do on this list, at least as long as I am a list owner. If you make ONE disparaging remark about someone's PERSON as a result of their POST, especially if it is their first, for no reason other than it being stupid, I'll hit the button without warning, thought, or concern. And I will do the same (probably with a private warning) to anyone else who follows that example. You have already been warned. If you can't interact here with that understanding, then please do post your [AD]: and then sign back off or lurk. Best wishes --- James Newton: PICList webmaster/Admin .....jamesnewtonKILLspam@spam@piclist.com 1-619-652-0593 phone http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786 PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com > {Original Message removed}

2004\07\18@064852 by Howard Winter

James, On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:23:16 -0700, James Newton, Host wrote: > 1. Welcome back! I am truly happy to have you and relieved that you have decided to come back. I missed you. Hear Hear! >...< > If you make ONE disparaging remark about someone's PERSON as a result of their POST, especially if it is their first, for no reason other than it being stupid, I'll hit the button without warning, thought, or concern. I used to run the busiest of the UK Compuserve forums, and we had a similar rule: you can say what you like about what someone *says* but you cannot impugne the person themselves. So you can say "That doesn't make sense" but you can't say "You are an idiot for saying that". A lot of people seem to have trouble stopping at that line! But we had the rules, clearly laid down, and any infringements were dealt with by the Sysop team, either deleting the offending message(s), privately warning the miscreant (it was *never* done in public) or for persistent or very serious single offenders, banning them from the forum. On the topic: "You shouldn't be here if you're so sensitive as to be aggrieved when I insult you": No! This is blaming the victim. If I hit someone in the face with a shovel, it's not their nose's fault for being too weak to withstand it. They may have done something to "deserve" it, but it isn't my job to put them in their place in an environment such as this - tolerance should be the first response, and gentle nudging in the direction of getting a clue is much better than trying to "force" them into acting more sensibly. If it doesn't work then just ignore them because making them go away isn't appropriate. Some people do take insults to heart - it's a wide world and there are lots of different people, who all have a right to be helped by the more knowledgeable / experienced / fortunate, although the latter also have the right to not help someone they think is a waste of their time. But they don't have the right to insult them because of this. All this IMHO, of course! :-) One of the rules we had was that there was to be no discussion of the administrative decisions - the likes of "You can't ban XXXXXX because he's a good member of the forum" were not allowed, because (as I'm sure you've seen) the ensuing ruckus takes over the place, completely swamping the "real" messages, with a Signal / Noise ratio several orders of magnitude the wrong way! And since the Sysops' decision is final, discussing it is pretty pointless anyway... although private messages of support or otherwise were fine, and even Wizops are only human! :-) You do a good job, James, and I fully understand what's involved, and quite how thankless it can be. And I'm glad Olin is back because I learn a lot from him! Thank You! Howard Winter St.Albans, England -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email listservKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

2004\07\18@084216 by appt

> From: "Olin Lathrop" > Hi, folks. I've decided to resubscribe to the PIClist, at least for a > while. I suspected all along that James could only remove someone from the > list, and didn't have the means to actually ban them. Even if he did, > coming back as a different email address would be trivial. OK. Thought about the merit of doing this. It has pros and cons. You've expressed your opinion, as you have a right (of sorts :-) ) to do about the list admins reaction and how bad or good your behaviour was. I'd like to comment on your comments. First off, I was one of the ones who argued, both on list and off list, for your being RETAINED on the list. This was BOTH because you were without doubt a valuable list member AND because I felt it was worth putting the effort into having you as part of the greater family here for your sake as well as everyone else's. I greatly respect you technical abilities and note the usefulness of the development resources that you have made available to all. However (there's always a however :-( ) I am astounded at the content of your introductory reappearance letter. (And I get less astoundable as the years progress.). I am not at all suggesting that I am perfect in my onlist behaviour or that I should never be "corrected" or advised. It even happens sometimes :-) As I interpret what you write (and interpretations are subjective) you are saying that James was wrong, that he was silly and unfair to have acted as he did, that what you did overall was fair and reasonable and that you expect to pick up more or less where you had left off, and that he can't keep you out anyway - nyah nyah - so there. The concept of cumulative performance doesn't seem to have entered into your consciousness. I do not have a private line into James brain but I imagine what got to James was your continual unremitting rudeness not only to people who arguably deserved, at worst, some sort of lesser insult and correction than you delivered but also those who you insulted quite undeservedly or quite unintelligently. A number of those who you have been rude to have been new to the list and also did not speak English as a first language. I am away from my home PC at present so can't easily check, but there was one gentleman who may well not have been back since you attacked him. He was essentially polite, potentially extraordinarily useful to the PICLIST community (possibly potentially more useful than yourself)(if that can be imagined) and you ripped into in grand style. The problem was - the misunderstanding was in your mind, because he was French and misunderstood ONE word you had used. On the basis of this usage you launched a fullish broad side. The word was "demand". You used it first. He misunderstood it. What do you think a Frenchman with French very much his primary language might think the word to mean? You could argue that you could hardly be expected to realise that he had not understood you. My point is that if you hadn't got stuck into him as you did then the misunderstanding would have been largely irrelevant. This man happens to be mature, technically confident and competent in the extreme and able to stick up for himself well enough. But you have been just as happy to rip into others where language was the key to your misunderstanding and they have done nothing that in any way merits your correction. On the occasions where this has happened and you have subsequently been made aware of your error I do not recall you ever having apologised. (Actually, on reflection, I do not recall you having apologised ever under any circumstances, but my memory is not eidetic). James has, as you may recall, expressly stated that you are not official list behavioural policeman and that he doesn't expect you to assume that role. (words not verbatim but that was the gist). I also do not have that role or right - but I feel the right to feel just the wee-est bit protective for James when you come back with such an introduction. It would have been "nice" if there had been the slightest amount of contrition, perhaps just a tip of the hat to the difficulty of the admin' role in dealing with such matters etc. In your absence we have had the same range of newbies, people seeking to have their term projects done, unthinking questioners, people who can't yet spell G-O-O-G-L-E, and their ilk. They have been dealt with in varying ways by varying people, mostly quite ably and happily (with perhaps one notable exception). Their mommys have not been invoked, their IQ's denigrated or their confidence in humanity deeply shaken. If you bring your extremely considerable technical competence to bear on assisting the next 1000 such people who you deem deserving of you efforts, and leave the lazy, stupid, *AND* English-not-a-first-language, AND the new-to-this-sort-of-thing-and-not-quite-sure-where-to-start and their ilk to the tender mercies of your list family THEN I can see a win win situation for us all. If rather you insist on re-assuming your Muppets-bald-eagle type role of yore, pushing James to the limit to prove that you are really in control and can't be pushed around and refusing to consider whether a person's apparent stupidity may be due to a language barrier or whatever, then we should have interesting times. Nobody ever asks YOU personally to answer their questions except when your name is mentioned or they are responding to a post you made personally. Why not just leave those who are not worthy of you to others to sort out? The gap between your technical abilities and your social graces is immense. This is not a crime. It's not necessarily even a defect per se. The world can be a better place because of the existence of brilliant socially-graceless people. Only when one starts trying to become expert in all fields do we get problems. And ... OK - stop there. Before you reply (or press delete). Does this feel good? Is this really the way we should be doing things? Do you feel edified, informed or uplifted by my rant? Now - > Therefore, telling them their message was > percieved as stupid or idiotic is doing them a favor. Maybe they weren't > aware how others would perceive it and try to not do that in the future. If > they still think their message was correct, just ignore what I said. Big > deal. If they are really hot and bothered about it, tell me I was being an > idiot for reacting that way. Again, big deal. I'd probably find that > entertaining. Have I done you a favour? Are you now more aware how others may perceive your post(s)? Are you just going to shrug this all off? (and were you going to before I asked that question?) Do you really want me to call you an idiot for reacting as you have? Are you entertained? Have I overdone it here? Probably. Have you got the point? Hopefully. Why not live and let live? Bless us with you undoubted brilliance! Make everyone's lives more pleasant by both your contributions and your silence, as relevant. AND, in the process make James' day !!!! :-) I'll try to do the same :-) Russell McMahon -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email .....listservKILLspam.....mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

2004\07\18@085504 by Carlos Marcano

Great arguments, Mr. McMahon. I believe this is what it is all about: To try to solucionate differences, respecting the differences. Welcome back Mr. Lathrop! Great work Mr. Newton! Regards, *Carlos Marcano* --Guri, Venezuela-- P.S: The post isn´t trimmed to let everybody now what I am talkig about. Please next replier (if any) trim it. Thanks. -----Mensaje original----- De: pic microcontroller discussion list [EraseMEPICLISTspam_OUTTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU]En nombre de appt Enviado el: Domingo, 18 de Julio de 2004 08:54 a.m. Para: PICLISTspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU Asunto: Re: [OT]: Hello again > From: "Olin Lathrop" > Hi, folks. I've decided to resubscribe to the PIClist, at least for a > while. I suspected all along that James could only remove someone from the > list, and didn't have the means to actually ban them. Even if he did, > coming back as a different email address would be trivial. OK. Thought about the merit of doing this. It has pros and cons. You've expressed your opinion, as you have a right (of sorts :-) ) to do about the list admins reaction and how bad or good your behaviour was. I'd like to comment on your comments. First off, I was one of the ones who argued, both on list and off list, for your being RETAINED on the list. This was BOTH because you were without doubt a valuable list member AND because I felt it was worth putting the effort into having you as part of the greater family here for your sake as well as everyone else's. I greatly respect you technical abilities and note the usefulness of the development resources that you have made available to all. However (there's always a however :-( ) I am astounded at the content of your introductory reappearance letter. (And I get less astoundable as the years progress.). I am not at all suggesting that I am perfect in my onlist behaviour or that I should never be "corrected" or advised. It even happens sometimes :-) As I interpret what you write (and interpretations are subjective) you are saying that James was wrong, that he was silly and unfair to have acted as he did, that what you did overall was fair and reasonable and that you expect to pick up more or less where you had left off, and that he can't keep you out anyway - nyah nyah - so there. The concept of cumulative performance doesn't seem to have entered into your consciousness. I do not have a private line into James brain but I imagine what got to James was your continual unremitting rudeness not only to people who arguably deserved, at worst, some sort of lesser insult and correction than you delivered but also those who you insulted quite undeservedly or quite unintelligently. A number of those who you have been rude to have been new to the list and also did not speak English as a first language. I am away from my home PC at present so can't easily check, but there was one gentleman who may well not have been back since you attacked him. He was essentially polite, potentially extraordinarily useful to the PICLIST community (possibly potentially more useful than yourself)(if that can be imagined) and you ripped into in grand style. The problem was - the misunderstanding was in your mind, because he was French and misunderstood ONE word you had used. On the basis of this usage you launched a fullish broad side. The word was "demand". You used it first. He misunderstood it. What do you think a Frenchman with French very much his primary language might think the word to mean? You could argue that you could hardly be expected to realise that he had not understood you. My point is that if you hadn't got stuck into him as you did then the misunderstanding would have been largely irrelevant. This man happens to be mature, technically confident and competent in the extreme and able to stick up for himself well enough. But you have been just as happy to rip into others where language was the key to your misunderstanding and they have done nothing that in any way merits your correction. On the occasions where this has happened and you have subsequently been made aware of your error I do not recall you ever having apologised. (Actually, on reflection, I do not recall you having apologised ever under any circumstances, but my memory is not eidetic). James has, as you may recall, expressly stated that you are not official list behavioural policeman and that he doesn't expect you to assume that role. (words not verbatim but that was the gist). I also do not have that role or right - but I feel the right to feel just the wee-est bit protective for James when you come back with such an introduction. It would have been "nice" if there had been the slightest amount of contrition, perhaps just a tip of the hat to the difficulty of the admin' role in dealing with such matters etc. In your absence we have had the same range of newbies, people seeking to have their term projects done, unthinking questioners, people who can't yet spell G-O-O-G-L-E, and their ilk. They have been dealt with in varying ways by varying people, mostly quite ably and happily (with perhaps one notable exception). Their mommys have not been invoked, their IQ's denigrated or their confidence in humanity deeply shaken. If you bring your extremely considerable technical competence to bear on assisting the next 1000 such people who you deem deserving of you efforts, and leave the lazy, stupid, *AND* English-not-a-first-language, AND the new-to-this-sort-of-thing-and-not-quite-sure-where-to-start and their ilk to the tender mercies of your list family THEN I can see a win win situation for us all. If rather you insist on re-assuming your Muppets-bald-eagle type role of yore, pushing James to the limit to prove that you are really in control and can't be pushed around and refusing to consider whether a person's apparent stupidity may be due to a language barrier or whatever, then we should have interesting times. Nobody ever asks YOU personally to answer their questions except when your name is mentioned or they are responding to a post you made personally. Why not just leave those who are not worthy of you to others to sort out? The gap between your technical abilities and your social graces is immense. This is not a crime. It's not necessarily even a defect per se. The world can be a better place because of the existence of brilliant socially-graceless people. Only when one starts trying to become expert in all fields do we get problems. And ... OK - stop there. Before you reply (or press delete). Does this feel good? Is this really the way we should be doing things? Do you feel edified, informed or uplifted by my rant? Now - > Therefore, telling them their message was > percieved as stupid or idiotic is doing them a favor. Maybe they weren't > aware how others would perceive it and try to not do that in the future. If > they still think their message was correct, just ignore what I said. Big > deal. If they are really hot and bothered about it, tell me I was being an > idiot for reacting that way. Again, big deal. I'd probably find that > entertaining. Have I done you a favour? Are you now more aware how others may perceive your post(s)? Are you just going to shrug this all off? (and were you going to before I asked that question?) Do you really want me to call you an idiot for reacting as you have? Are you entertained? Have I overdone it here? Probably. Have you got the point? Hopefully. Why not live and let live? Bless us with you undoubted brilliance! Make everyone's lives more pleasant by both your contributions and your silence, as relevant. AND, in the process make James' day !!!! :-) I'll try to do the same :-) Russell McMahon -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email @spam@listservKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.716 / Virus Database: 472 - Release Date: 05/07/04 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.716 / Virus Database: 472 - Release Date: 05/07/04 -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email KILLspamlistservKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

2004\07\18@090617 by Olin Lathrop

Hey, Russell, it took me all the way to the end before I figured out this message was from you. Your FROM field showed up as "appt" in Outlook Express. > Have I done you a favour? I wouldn't call it a favor. > Are you now more aware how others may perceive your post(s)? Not really, since I've heard a range of sentiments, including yours, before. I remember you being more towards the touchy-feely end of things previously. > Are you just going to shrug this all off? Mostly. > (and were you going to before I asked that question?) Ha, ha. This question demonstrates a great understing of how things really work. The answer is "pretty much". > Do you really want me to call you an idiot for reacting as you have? I have no objection, but watch out for James. He might bounce you from the list in a misguided attempt to "protect" me or the list. > Are you entertained? Yeah. > Have I overdone it here? Nah. ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email RemoveMElistservTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

2004\07\18@093801 by Wouter van Ooijen

> [AD]: and then sign back off or lurk. [AD:] ? Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email spamBeGonelistservspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

2004\07\18@094237 by Russell McMahon

> Hey, Russell, it took me all the way to the end before I figured out this > message was from you. Your FROM field showed up as "appt" in Outlook > Express. Thanks - that should be better - set that up on a PC away from home and had missed the sender address. RM -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email TakeThisOuTlistservEraseMEspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

2004\07\18@100521 by Olin Lathrop

> [AD:] ? I think James was referring to my saying I would post an AD message shortly, which I did. I just went to the archives to try to get a URL to the message, but there doesn't seem to be a unique URL. The browser just showed ".../postbot.asp?". James, is there a way to get the unique URL of a specific PIClist message in the archive? Anyway, the product I announced in the AD message is described at http://www.embedinc.com/easyprog. Sorry if this competes with the Wisp, but I'm doing this for other reasons than making money on this product. I really don't expect to break even, but that's not why I'm doing this. ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email RemoveMElistservTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

2004\07\18@105724 by dal

Welcome back! Maybe I'll get to meet you at masters this year! Speaking of returning long-time members; has anyone heard from Roman Black or any of the old group that seem to have dropped off? -Dal --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.713 / Virus Database: 469 - Release Date: 6/30/2004 -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email listservEraseME.....mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

2004\07\18@111220 by Wouter van Ooijen

> > [AD:] ? If this replies to my message: I was referring to the [AD:] versus [AD]: confusion > Sorry if this competes with the Wisp, but > I'm doing this for other reasons than making money on this product. It somewhat does, maybe like the Microchip sampling competes (or destroys) some of my buisiness. But on the other hand: free PIcs in limited amount only wet the appetite for more PICs and the related things (LCDs etc) which I also sell. Likewise alternatives for Wisp628 will only increase the acceptance of PICs. And maybe it will reduce the number of emails I get from people who can't get their serial-port-powered program to work :) Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email EraseMElistservmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

2004\07\18@115710 by James Newton, Host

Turn off frames at the opening screen. Or right click on the actual post and select properties, then copy the URL from there. It can also be shortened www.piclist.com/techref/postbot.asp?by=time&id=piclist\yyyy\mm\dd\tim e is the same as http://www.piclist.com/piclist/yyyy/mm/dd/time --- James Newton: PICList webmaster/Admin RemoveMEjamesnewtonEraseMEEraseMEpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593 phone http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786 PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com > {Original Message removed}

2004\07\18@151718 by Dwayne Reid

At 09:41 AM 7/17/2004, Olin Lathrop wrote: >Hi, folks. I've decided to resubscribe to the PIClist, at least for a >while. Hi there, Olin. Glad to see you back again. I hope that you do stick around. dwayne -- Dwayne Reid <RemoveMEdwaynerspam_OUTKILLspamplanet.eon.net> Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd Edmonton, AB, CANADA (780) 489-3199 voice (780) 487-6397 fax Celebrating 20 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2004) .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .- `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to this email address. This message neither grants consent to receive unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email. -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email RemoveMElistservTakeThisOuTspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

2004\07\18@202215 by Peter van Hoof

Olin, I like many here probably have a question for you (and appologise beforehand though I live in the US these days english is not my native language) What is the reason you came back, and what do you expect to get from the list? Peter van Hoof {Original Message removed}

2004\07\19@032203 by Luis Moreira

Hi Olin glad to see you back. regards Luis -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList EraseMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestspamspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu

2004\07\19@152059 by Dominic Stratten

Welcome back to the list Olin - I'd like to say its been quiet without you but there have been plenty of other people to argue with ;-) Dom -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspammitvma.mit.edu

2004\07\20@105945 by Omer YALHI

Actually [AD]: seems to be the correct notation, below is the automatic message attached to the emails (sometimes): http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads --------------------------------- Earlier: > [AD]: and then sign back off or lurk. [AD:] ? Wouter van Ooijen -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

2004\07\21@075442 by Gerhard Fiedler

>> [AD]: and then sign back off or lurk. > > [AD:] ? > Actually [AD]: seems to be the correct notation, below is the automatic > message attached to the emails (sometimes): I had that same question when I came back to the "new" piclist after a while off, and I was told that for the list processor it doesn't matter, but that the version with the colon inside the brackets "[AD:]" is less likely to get mangled by mail clients that try to do some subject line clean-up to get rid of superfluous RE: and FW: etc. Gerhard -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2004\07\21@125834 by James Newton, Host

If we weren't about to move to mailman, we would need to figure this out. My tests showed that Outhouse had a problem with the colon INSIDE the brackets. --- James Newton: PICList webmaster/Admin jamesnewtonSTOPspamspam_OUTpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593 phone http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786 PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com > {Original Message removed}

2004\07\21@212901 by Jim Tellier

James Newton wrote: > If we weren't about to move to mailman, we would need to figure this out. My > tests showed that Outhouse had a problem with the colon INSIDE the brackets. > I can confirm that! your (above) message was sent as [OT]:, and it did in fact show up in my Off-Topic folder. What's so damn confusing about "Outhouse" is that "most" posts to [OT:], [PIC:], {EE:] etc. *DO* get moved to my other appropriate folders!!! (i.e. I have similar rules for each of the PICLIST category tags). It's just "some" of the [xx:] posts that inevitably show up in my INBOX! I can't see any rhyme or reason to Outhouse's behavior. Oh, maybe it only happens on days that end in "Y"!! :^) Jim An example of my mail rules: Apply this rule after the message arrives Where the Subject line contains '[OT]' or '[OT]:' or '[OT:]' and Where the To line contains 'PICLIST' Move it to the Off-Topic folder > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics > (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2004\07\21@220716 by Richard Prosser

Why not just filtrt on "[OT" ?? RP James Newton wrote: > If we weren't about to move to mailman, we would need to figure this out. My > tests showed that Outhouse had a problem with the colon INSIDE the brackets. > I can confirm that! your (above) message was sent as [OT]:, and it did in fact show up in my Off-Topic folder. What's so damn confusing about "Outhouse" is that "most" posts to [OT:], [PIC:], {EE:] etc. *DO* get moved to my other appropriate folders!!! (i.e. I have similar rules for each of the PICLIST category tags). It's just "some" of the [xx:] posts that inevitably show up in my INBOX! I can't see any rhyme or reason to Outhouse's behavior. Oh, maybe it only happens on days that end in "Y"!! :^) Jim An example of my mail rules: Apply this rule after the message arrives Where the Subject line contains '[OT]' or '[OT]:' or '[OT:]' and Where the To line contains 'PICLIST' Move it to the Off-Topic folder -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2004\07\22@065926 by Alan B. Pearce

>Why not just filtrt on "[OT" ?? I have set my rules up so that the colon is required, so that any which do not comply fall into a catch all box for piclist mails, in an effort to make sure I modify the header to comply with the rules, if I do reply. This does not stop my outlook expletive from dropping the tag when replying to a start of thread mail :)))) >> If we weren't about to move to mailman, we would need to figure >> this out. My tests showed that Outhouse had a problem with the >> colon INSIDE the brackets. The problem is that Outlook and Outlook Express strip up to the colon if the colon is within the first 4 (IIRC) characters. You can see this when untagged messages have "Re: ] " as the start of the subject when the colon was inside the brackets. >I can confirm that! your (above) message was sent as [OT]:, >and it did in fact show up in my Off-Topic folder. What's so >damn confusing about "Outhouse" is that "most" posts to [OT:], >[PIC:], {EE:] etc. *DO* get moved to my other appropriate folders!!! >(i.e. I have similar rules for each of the PICLIST category tags). >It's just "some" of the [xx:] posts that inevitably show up in >my INBOX! I can't see any rhyme or reason to Outhouse's behavior. >Oh, maybe it only happens on days that end in "Y"!! :^) No it happens when people put extra spaces in the tag. Some people put a space between the colon and the tag, whereas the strict tag has no spaces. My rules allow for the tag to be inside or outside the brackets, with no spaces, and then I have a rule set so that if the message falls through the tag rules, then it is checked to see if it is from the piclist, and put into a "catch-all" box instead of being left in the inbox. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

2004\07\23@171223 by dr. Imre Bartfai

Howard, you told as from my heart. However, there is some linguistical aspects which make the decision between *offending the person* and *criticize the statement* not so easy as there is a gray zone between them. Only as example: *what you told is bullshit* *u behaves like a bullshit-speaker IMHO* *u talk like a bozo* *u're similar to a bozo* *u're a bozo*. So the gray zone is not zero width one. The problem is only, different person feels the frontier between black and white (somewhere in the gray zone) at different level and of course, almost all people think the line is for all the people exactly at the same level. I am personally a sensitive man so I feel me occasionally also offended when the other person did not intent to offend me. It may depend on wording, too... Excuse me for my not-native tongue spoken English. I hope I could express what I think. Regards, Imre On Sun, 18 Jul 2004, Howard Winter wrote: {Quote hidden}> James, > > On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:23:16 -0700, James Newton, Host wrote: > > > 1. Welcome back! I am truly happy to have you and relieved that you have decided to come back. I missed you. > > Hear Hear! > > >...< > > > If you make ONE disparaging remark about someone's PERSON as a result of their POST, especially if it is > their first, for no reason other than it being stupid, I'll hit the button without warning, thought, or > concern. > > I used to run the busiest of the UK Compuserve forums, and we had a similar rule: you can say what you like > about what someone *says* but you cannot impugne the person themselves. So you can say "That doesn't make > sense" but you can't say "You are an idiot for saying that". A lot of people seem to have trouble stopping at > that line! But we had the rules, clearly laid down, and any infringements were dealt with by the Sysop team, > either deleting the offending message(s), privately warning the miscreant (it was *never* done in public) or > for persistent or very serious single offenders, banning them from the forum. > > On the topic: "You shouldn't be here if you're so sensitive as to be aggrieved when I insult you": No! This > is blaming the victim. If I hit someone in the face with a shovel, it's not their nose's fault for being too > weak to withstand it. They may have done something to "deserve" it, but it isn't my job to put them in their > place in an environment such as this - tolerance should be the first response, and gentle nudging in the > direction of getting a clue is much better than trying to "force" them into acting more sensibly. If it > doesn't work then just ignore them because making them go away isn't appropriate. Some people do take insults > to heart - it's a wide world and there are lots of different people, who all have a right to be helped by the > more knowledgeable / experienced / fortunate, although the latter also have the right to not help someone they > think is a waste of their time. But they don't have the right to insult them because of this. All this IMHO, > of course! :-) > > One of the rules we had was that there was to be no discussion of the administrative decisions - the likes of > "You can't ban XXXXXX because he's a good member of the forum" were not allowed, because (as I'm sure you've > seen) the ensuing ruckus takes over the place, completely swamping the "real" messages, with a Signal / Noise > ratio several orders of magnitude the wrong way! And since the Sysops' decision is final, discussing it is > pretty pointless anyway... although private messages of support or otherwise were fine, and even Wizops are > only human! :-) > > You do a good job, James, and I fully understand what's involved, and quite how thankless it can be. And I'm > glad Olin is back because I learn a lot from him! > > Thank You! > > > Howard Winter > St.Albans, England > > -- > http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! > email spamBeGonelistservSTOPspamEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body > -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email KILLspamlistservspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

2004\07\23@181147 by James Newton, Host

So true. The theory of relativity as applied to human social interaction. I tend to look at it as probabilities. The nicer your post, the less chance there is of offending. And this leads to using a "fuzzy logic" approach to figure out what action is best for the list as a whole. On the one had, this makes it very hard to "justify" or explain my decisions. On the other hand, it does, in fact, make it possible for me to be influenced by my own personal bias. On the gripping hand, it seems to have worked well. --- James Newton: PICList webmaster/Admin EraseMEjamesnewtonEraseMEpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593 phone http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786 PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com > {Original Message removed}

2004\07\23@182429 by David VanHorn

> >On the gripping hand, it seems to have worked well. And so mote it be. :) -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email @spam@listserv@spam@spam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

2004\07\24@083930 by Gerhard Fiedler

On 7/22/04 08:00:41, in gmane.comp.hardware.microcontrollers.pic you wrote: > This does not stop my outlook expletive from dropping the tag when replying > to a start of thread mail :)))) I have a separate email account for mailing lists, and use a different mail/news reader for those. Mainly because Outlook doesn't show email folders in a threaded view (maybe Outlook Express can). And I've started to watch the list through the above newsgroup... has its advantages, too. Gerhard -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList spamBeGonepiclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspammitvma.mit.edu

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