Post by thread:[OT]: Jokers Play - was [EE]: Tilting SLA's

oops, better change topic ------ Brent Brown wrote: {Quote hidden}>> > OK... I'd suggest you NOT CHARGE THEM if they're not right side up. >> > Any pressure venting WILL spew acid from the caps. I know. >> > >> > Dale >> >> Ah-ha !! You "may" have solved a little mystery that's bugged >> me for a few days. I was gazing around in the hardware store >> and noticed a label on the surveillance camera that said "Do >> not rotate more than 70 degrees from vertical". Why ? I >> wondered. The staff didn't know. Could it be because it has >> an SLA inside ? > >Well, if your security camera's not on the level, then who can you >trust? > Speaking of which, in the recent movie "The Score", they went to a lot of bloomin' trouble to fool the guys what was watching the security cams in the treasure room. Seems to me, in today's world, it would be just too durn easy to build a box chip it quick into the coax, 1 sec job, snap exactly "1" frame of the treasure room, and repeatedly send that frame up to the watchers, while the jokers play. -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email spam_OUTlistservTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

{Quote hidden}> oops, better change topic ------ > > > Brent Brown wrote: > >> > OK... I'd suggest you NOT CHARGE THEM if they're not right side up. > >> > Any pressure venting WILL spew acid from the caps. I know. > >> > > >> > Dale > >> > >> Ah-ha !! You "may" have solved a little mystery that's bugged > >> me for a few days. I was gazing around in the hardware store > >> and noticed a label on the surveillance camera that said "Do > >> not rotate more than 70 degrees from vertical". Why ? I > >> wondered. The staff didn't know. Could it be because it has > >> an SLA inside ? > > > >Well, if your security camera's not on the level, then who can you > >trust? > > > > > Speaking of which, in the recent movie "The Score", they > went to a lot of bloomin' trouble to fool the guys what > was watching the security cams in the treasure room. > > Seems to me, in today's world, it would be just too durn > easy to build a box chip it quick into the coax, 1 sec job, > snap exactly "1" frame of the treasure room, and repeatedly > send that frame up to the watchers, while the jokers play. > Which is why you digitise the signal in the camera and then encrypt it before sending it across the transmission media. Just for once the guys in the White Hats are ahead of the guys in the Black Hats 8-) Regards Chris Carr -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList .....piclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu

Chris Carr wrote: > > Brent Brown wrote: deletia... {Quote hidden}> > Speaking of which, in the recent movie "The Score", they > > went to a lot of bloomin' trouble to fool the guys what > > was watching the security cams in the treasure room. > > > > Seems to me, in today's world, it would be just too durn > > easy to build a box chip it quick into the coax, 1 sec job, > > snap exactly "1" frame of the treasure room, and repeatedly > > send that frame up to the watchers, while the jokers play. > > > Which is why you digitise the signal in the camera and then encrypt it > before sending it across the transmission media. > > Just for once the guys in the White Hats are ahead of the guys in the Black > Hats 8-) Only if the encryption keys change periodically (like every frame). If the scene is static, what's to prevent me from just capturing the ENCODED scene, and replaying the encrypted data, looping at the repetition point (vertical sync)? -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList piclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspammitvma.mit.edu

> >Only if the encryption keys change periodically (like every frame). >If the scene is static, what's to prevent me from just capturing the >ENCODED scene, and replaying the encrypted data, looping at the >repetition point (vertical sync)? The timecode in the picture, of course :) -- Dave's Engineering Page: http://www.dvanhorn.org I would have a link to http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/find.cgi?KC6ETE-9 here in my signature line, but due to the inability of sysadmins at TELOCITY to differentiate a signature line from the text of an email, I am forbidden to have it. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList .....piclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspam.....mitvma.mit.edu

Robert Rolf wrote: {Quote hidden}>Chris Carr wrote: >> > Brent Brown wrote: >deletia... > >> > Speaking of which, in the recent movie "The Score", they >> > went to a lot of bloomin' trouble to fool the guys what >> > was watching the security cams in the treasure room. >> > >> > Seems to me, in today's world, it would be just too durn >> > easy to build a box chip it quick into the coax, 1 sec job, >> > snap exactly "1" frame of the treasure room, and repeatedly >> > send that frame up to the watchers, while the jokers play. >> > >> Which is why you digitise the signal in the camera and then encrypt it >> before sending it across the transmission media. >> >> Just for once the guys in the White Hats are ahead of the guys in the Black >> Hats 8-) > >Only if the encryption keys change periodically (like every frame). >If the scene is static, what's to prevent me from just capturing the >ENCODED scene, and replaying the encrypted data, looping at the >repetition point (vertical sync)? > I am sure us Black Hats can figure it out. After all, we are right there in the room with deNiro, and have direct access to the cam. Also, our buds are up in the transfer switch rooms. And don't forget we have infrared eyes. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList EraseMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestspam_OUTTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu

Dan Michaels wrote: > Robert Rolf wrote: > >Chris Carr wrote: > >> > Brent Brown wrote: > >deletia... > > > >> > Speaking of which, in the recent movie "The Score", they > >> > went to a lot of bloomin' trouble to fool the guys what > >> > was watching the security cams in the treasure room. > >> > > >> > Seems to me, in today's world, it would be just too durn > >> > easy to build a box chip it quick into the coax, 1 sec job, > >> > snap exactly "1" frame of the treasure room, and repeatedly > >> > send that frame up to the watchers, while the jokers play. > >> > > >> Which is why you digitise the signal in the camera and then encrypt it > >> before sending it across the transmission media. > >> > >> Just for once the guys in the White Hats are ahead of the guys in the Black {Quote hidden}> >> Hats 8-) > > > >Only if the encryption keys change periodically (like every frame). > >If the scene is static, what's to prevent me from just capturing the > >ENCODED scene, and replaying the encrypted data, looping at the > >repetition point (vertical sync)? > > > > I am sure us Black Hats can figure it out. After all, we are right > there in the room with deNiro, and have direct access to the cam. > Also, our buds are up in the transfer switch rooms. And don't forget > we have infrared eyes. > I have no doubt that the Black Hats can.....given time. I'm sure that the Whiter than White Hats already have, as one of the transmission medias we use is Radio and we are within the Radio Restricted Zones of both Memwith Hill and Fylingdales. So I have no doubt that the signals have been fully analysed and decrypted with the algorithms, and techniques being passed on to so you will conclude that in my estimation CCTV in High Security Areas as portrayed on film bears as much resemblance to reality as a Hollywood portrayal of History. Regards Chris Carr -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList piclist-unsubscribe-requestspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu

so you will conclude that in my estimation CCTV in High Security Areas as >portrayed on film bears as much resemblance to reality as a Hollywood >portrayal of History. > Of course, you are assuming everyone has gone to the expense to install the really secure systems. I'd imagine penetration of those into america is actually about 10%. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList @spam@piclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspammitvma.mit.edu

On Sat, 4 Aug 2001, Dan Michaels wrote: > so you will conclude that in my estimation CCTV in High Security Areas as > >portrayed on film bears as much resemblance to reality as a Hollywood > >portrayal of History. > > > > Of course, you are assuming everyone has gone to the expense > to install the really secure systems. I'd imagine penetration > of those into america is actually about 10%. Given the vast number of cheap video systems in use at most places, I'd be astonished if it topped 2%. Dale -- A train stops at a train station. A bus stops at a bus station. On my desk I have a workstation... -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList KILLspampiclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspammitvma.mit.edu

Chris, I don't think that encryption is that rock solid. Since the data rates involved in Video are quite high, These things may not go in for anyting more than 48bit encryption. Which might be cracked by brute force if the guys in Black Hats have enough money to spend. I'm sure the encrypted data contains some kind of CRC for error detection.This might be used as the pattern to detect the right data. Remember, No matter what kinda encryption you use, The guys in black will catch up sooner or later. Regards, Jeethu Rao Chris Carr Wrote: {Quote hidden}> Which is why you digitise the signal in the camera and then encrypt it > before sending it across the transmission media. > > Just for once the guys in the White Hats are ahead of the guys in > the Black > Hats 8-) > > Regards > Chris Carr > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList > RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu > > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

>Which is why you digitise the signal in the camera and then encrypt it >before sending it across the transmission media. >Just for once the guys in the White Hats are ahead of the guys in the Black >Hats 8-) Fine providing you use an algorithm that is not an integer multiple or submultiples of the frame length, so that any such re-injection of a single frame produces hash on the screen. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

Transmission Security is what it was called IIRC. In the military crypto systems I worked on (long long ago), the encrypted data stream was constant, even during non-message periods, because even the knowledge of message frequency is sensitive information. Likewise I would expect an encrypted video stream to have the sync encrypted as well, indistinguishable from the frame data. GC {Quote hidden}> > Only if the encryption keys change periodically (like every frame). > If the scene is static, what's to prevent me from just capturing the > ENCODED scene, and replaying the encrypted data, looping at the > repetition point (vertical sync)? > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList > spamBeGonepiclist-unsubscribe-requestspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu > > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

>>If the scene is static, what's to prevent me from just capturing the >>ENCODED scene, and replaying the encrypted data, looping at the >>repetition point (vertical sync)? > >The timecode in the picture, of course :) >Dave's Engineering Page: http://www.dvanhorn.org How about a CLOCK in the picture? -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

At 11:20 AM 8/6/01 -0700, you wrote: > >>If the scene is static, what's to prevent me from just capturing the > >>ENCODED scene, and replaying the encrypted data, looping at the > >>repetition point (vertical sync)? > > > >The timecode in the picture, of course :) > >Dave's Engineering Page: http://www.dvanhorn.org > >How about a CLOCK in the picture? That would require humans to be intelligent.. Not a dependable course of action, in my experience. -- Dave's Engineering Page: http://www.dvanhorn.org I would have a link to http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/find.cgi?KC6ETE-9 here in my signature line, but due to the inability of sysadmins at TELOCITY to differentiate a signature line from the text of an email, I am forbidden to have it. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

Yes, but IF the stream repeats, particularly if the reptetion is at a common video rate (60Hz, 50Hz, 59.97Hz (NTSC color), then it's spoofable. An uncrackable system would have to have random keys, with random timing as well. A brute force attack could easily determin a fixed key since the data of a static image is unchanging. gacrowell wrote: {Quote hidden}> > Transmission Security is what it was called IIRC. In the military crypto > systems I worked on (long long ago), the encrypted data stream was constant, > even during non-message periods, because even the knowledge of message > frequency is sensitive information. Likewise I would expect an encrypted > video stream to have the sync encrypted as well, indistinguishable from the > frame data. > > GC > > > > > Only if the encryption keys change periodically (like every frame). > > If the scene is static, what's to prevent me from just capturing the > > ENCODED scene, and replaying the encrypted data, looping at the > > repetition point (vertical sync)? > > > > -- > > http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList > > TakeThisOuTpiclist-unsubscribe-requestEraseMEspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu> > > > > > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics > (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

Nope, because the key stream doesn't repeat over any useful period, and certainly not on a period that would be a multiple of the sync. Once you mix them to create the enciphered data stream, it all looks random. The key stream length can be on the order of 10^100 bits in length before repeating, which looks to me like something on the order of once every 80 centuries at video rates. The 'keys' that you are probably thinking of, 64, 128 bits, etc., are used to produce the pseudo-random key stream of great length. This looks like a good page on the subject: http://www.rsasecurity.com/rsalabs/faq/2-1-5.html > {Original Message removed}

>An uncrackable system would have to have random keys, with random >timing as well. A brute force attack could easily determin a fixed >key since the data of a static image is unchanging. A real live video signal from a camera starts out as an analog phenomenon. There will be noise in the signal, so each frame won't be identical. (And even if it were, one could add a little noise of their own) Barry -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

This whole thread has been a bit confused: You do _not_ need an uncrackable video feed for security purposes. Presumably the black hats know what is actually going on in the treasure room (they are the ones in their, after all). What you _do_ need is an _unspoofable_ feed. This is a very different, and probably much simpler matter. Of course, at other times uncrackable is important: like the feed to Oklahoma City of Tim V' meeting his maker. Bob Ammerman RAm Systems (contract development of high performance, high function, low-level software) {Original Message removed}