Post by thread:[OT]: PIC programming job

Epistle to the Piclist, Naturally, this seems like a great opportunity for me to get my first embedded project contract. I am confident that I should have no problem in writing the software for this, since I have already done allot of coding (with far greater complexity) on the 16f84. However, it seems that this will require use of a PIC with ADC capabilities. What is the cheapest PIC that has this capability? Or, should it be done some other way? From the stated requirements, does it sound like he wants hardware design also? What would be a fair way (price?) to charge for just the software. Come on guys, give me some input. Surely everyone here had to have their first time. I sent him an e-mail, but he may not even consider me. Nonetheless, I would still like input (flames?) from everyone. Please share personal thoughts on getting your first embedded contract. I have done allot of programming, but never for contract. I would greatly appreciate any input I can get. Thanks and TTYL Michael Brown Instant Net Solutions http://www.KillerPCs.net {Quote hidden}> Hi there, > > We found your site by a quick search. > > We are a small distributor (come manufacturer) of CCTV equipment. > > We are searching for a company or an individual to do some pic programming > for us at a reasonable cost. Are you interested? > > Overview. > We require a pic that is fairly small in size and reasonably low cost. The > pic will do nothing special and is basically a timer with 3 outputs and 1 > trigger input. One timing period needs to be adjustable using simple > external components such as a variable resistor. > Operating voltage = 5V. > > We need the following to happen; > > 1 -A pic to start a timing routine on a negative input. > 2- A pic output pin, say "A" to go low for 1 second after the input. > 3- Start a timer (0-5mins) that inhibits another input causing "A" to go low > again during this timed period. > 4- At the end of the timed period cause a second pin to go low (say pin "B") > again for 1 second. > 5- Whilst ever the timed period is running a third pin "C" goes hi-low at a > rate of about 2hz. > 6- After the timed period the input now accepts a negative trigger to start > the routine again. > > Notes - > The timed period needs to be adjusted by a small variable resistor or > similar from say 0-5 minutes. None of the timing is absolutely critical but > +/- 10% would be great. > > > What do you think? > > Can you please let us know as we are keen to find someone to help us out > with this project. If you have any ideas about costs, please indicate these > as it will be useful. > > Many thanks, > > Paul Goodwin. -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email spam_OUTlistservTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

At 04:18 PM 5/25/01 -0500, michael brown wrote: >Epistle to the Piclist, > >Naturally, this seems like a great opportunity for me to get my first >embedded project contract. I am confident that I should have no problem in >writing the software for this, since I have already done allot of coding >(with far greater complexity) on the 16f84. However, it seems that this >will require use of a PIC with ADC capabilities. What is the cheapest PIC >that has this capability? Or, should it be done some other way? From the >stated requirements, does it sound like he wants hardware design also? What >would be a fair way (price?) to charge for just the software. Come on guys, >give me some input. Surely everyone here had to have their first time. I >sent him an e-mail, but he may not even consider me. Nonetheless, I would >still like input (flames?) from everyone. Please share personal thoughts on >getting your first embedded contract. I have done allot of programming, but >never for contract. I would greatly appreciate any input I can get. Thanks >and TTYL You can fake an A/D (not really fake) by using two resistors, two diodes, and a cap. A single port pin connects to the two diodes. The diodes each connect to a resistor (one is your pot) The resistors both connect to the cap. Use a moderate size, like 10uF. Orient the diodes so that charge current goes through one resistor, and discharge through the other. Now, you can compare charge time vs discharge time, and get the ratio. You'll be flipping banks a lot, but it works. -- Dave's Engineering Page: http://www.dvanhorn.org I would have a link to FINDU here in my signature line, but due to the inability of sysadmins at TELOCITY to differentiate a signature line from the text of an email, I am forbidden to have it. -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email .....listservKILLspam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

Just for the fun of it, I have already written the program in 3.5 hours (it was more of an exercise on seeing how long it would take rather than if I could do it). I did it for the 12C671 (< $2). I figure that I have about another 3.5 to 4.5 hours to breadboard something up really quick, debug it, fine tune the timing values, test everything, and document it. Based on this, I was better able to send my own estimate on price. I was once told that the ammount one should charge for a contract was equal to 1.5 times what you could get as an employee somewhere doing the same thing (at least for starters). michael brown wrote: {Quote hidden}> Epistle to the Piclist, > > Naturally, this seems like a great opportunity for me to get my first > embedded project contract. I am confident that I should have no problem in > writing the software for this, since I have already done allot of coding > (with far greater complexity) on the 16f84. However, it seems that this > will require use of a PIC with ADC capabilities. What is the cheapest PIC > that has this capability? Or, should it be done some other way? From the > stated requirements, does it sound like he wants hardware design also? What > would be a fair way (price?) to charge for just the software. Come on guys, > give me some input. Surely everyone here had to have their first time. I > sent him an e-mail, but he may not even consider me. Nonetheless, I would > still like input (flames?) from everyone. Please share personal thoughts on > getting your first embedded contract. I have done allot of programming, but > never for contract. I would greatly appreciate any input I can get. Thanks > and TTYL > > Michael Brown > Instant Net Solutions > http://www.KillerPCs.net > > > Hi there, > > > > We found your site by a quick search. > > > > We are a small distributor (come manufacturer) of CCTV equipment. > > > > We are searching for a company or an individual to do some pic programming > > for us at a reasonable cost. Are you interested? > > > > Overview. > > We require a pic that is fairly small in size and reasonably low cost. The > > pic will do nothing special and is basically a timer with 3 outputs and 1 > > trigger input. One timing period needs to be adjustable using simple > > external components such as a variable resistor. > > Operating voltage = 5V. > > > > We need the following to happen; > > > > 1 -A pic to start a timing routine on a negative input. > > 2- A pic output pin, say "A" to go low for 1 second after the input. > > 3- Start a timer (0-5mins) that inhibits another input causing "A" to go > low > > again during this timed period. > > 4- At the end of the timed period cause a second pin to go low (say pin > "B") > > again for 1 second. > > 5- Whilst ever the timed period is running a third pin "C" goes hi-low at > a > > rate of about 2hz. > > 6- After the timed period the input now accepts a negative trigger to > start > > the routine again. > > > > Notes - > > The timed period needs to be adjusted by a small variable resistor or > > similar from say 0-5 minutes. None of the timing is absolutely critical > but > > +/- 10% would be great. > > > > > > What do you think? > > > > Can you please let us know as we are keen to find someone to help us out > > with this project. If you have any ideas about costs, please indicate > these > > as it will be useful. > > > > Many thanks, > > > > Paul Goodwin. > > -- > http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! > email listservKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email .....listservKILLspam.....mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Newland" <EraseMEapespam_OUTTakeThisOuTESKIMO.COM> To: <PICLISTspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU> Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 6:28 PM Subject: Re: [OT]: PIC programming job > Just for the fun of it, I have already written the program in 3.5 hours (it was > more of an exercise on seeing how long it would take rather than if I could do > it). I did it for the 12C671 (< $2). I figure that I have about another 3.5 to > 4.5 hours to breadboard something up really quick, debug it, fine tune the > timing values, test everything, and document it. Based on this, I was better > able to send my own estimate on price. I was once told that the ammount one > should charge for a contract was equal to 1.5 times what you could get as an > employee somewhere doing the same thing (at least for starters). Did you get the contract? Thank you kindly for the input. This is a new area for me. Currently, I do my own thing (this is also my first attempt at self-employment) running service calls and network installs, internet sharing, and internet security solutions. But, I am trying to move more to the consulting end of things and away from the running-myself-ragged thing. It's been my experience that the harder you work, the less you make. I've always loved the hardware as much as software and being an embedded developer looks very attractive and satisfying. I've been writing assembly language professionally for about twenty years (not bad for 39 huh??) but mostly on mainframes. Writing code is fun, but sitting at a desk all day is not. There is something about working with my hands that I just can't get out of my blood. Ahhh, the smell of burning rosin, the tiny pinpricks of twisting wire, and of course (not to beat a dead horse) the "one time" (amazing how that works) occurrence of picking up a soldering iron from the wrong end. Combine that with debugging RMW problems and I'm in Heaven. ;o) Thanks again for the input. My estimate was somewhat close to yours. TTYL -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email @spam@listservKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

> You can use the pic16f873 > check the microchip website http://www.microchip.com and/or the piclist website > http://www.piclist.com > there you can find a lot of code for use the built-in ADC of PIC'S > > If you need ADC for resolutions smaller that 10 bits, the built-in ADC is a > good idea, but if you need greater resolutions use external ADC. > > I've use the 16f873 whit AD7730BN (ANLAGOD DEVICE ADC) for resolutions of 16 > bits and 24 bits for weight system applications, and the behaviour of my > systems are really good. > > Regards > > Francisco > Thanks for the advice. Every bit helps. I feel like a kid in a candy store. michael -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email KILLspamlistservKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

> You can fake an A/D (not really fake) by using two resistors, two diodes, > and a cap. > A single port pin connects to the two diodes. > The diodes each connect to a resistor (one is your pot) > The resistors both connect to the cap. Use a moderate size, like 10uF. > > Orient the diodes so that charge current goes through one resistor, and > discharge through the other. > Now, you can compare charge time vs discharge time, and get the ratio. > > You'll be flipping banks a lot, but it works. I'll have to play with that. Being very inexperienced with this kind of thing I tend to "over engineer". This is the kind of thing that can mean allot, especially when a customer will want to mass produce something. From looking at TV schematics I have seen things that I would never have thought of in a million years. Ways to avoid using one more transistor, or ways to get a voltage source from the wildest concoction (TV designers are great at this). And I understand that if you can save ten cents, fifty thousand times over, it can be that (oh so important) make or break difference. Good to here from you Dave. Thanks again for the advice, I need all the help I can get. How's the HamHud III going??? michael -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email RemoveMElistservTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

michael brown wrote: {Quote hidden}> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark Newland" <spamBeGoneapespamBeGoneESKIMO.COM> > To: <TakeThisOuTPICLISTEraseMEspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU> > Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 6:28 PM > Subject: Re: [OT]: PIC programming job > > > Just for the fun of it, I have already written the program in 3.5 hours > (it was > > more of an exercise on seeing how long it would take rather than if I > could do > > it). I did it for the 12C671 (< $2). I figure that I have about another > 3.5 to > > 4.5 hours to breadboard something up really quick, debug it, fine tune the > > timing values, test everything, and document it. Based on this, I was > better > > able to send my own estimate on price. I was once told that the ammount > one > > should charge for a contract was equal to 1.5 times what you could get as > an > > employee somewhere doing the same thing (at least for starters). > > Did you get the contract? Thank you kindly for the input. This is a new > area for me. Currently, I do my own thing (this is also my first attempt at > self-employment) running service calls and network installs, internet > sharing, and internet security solutions. But, I am trying to move more to > the consulting end of things and away from the running-myself-ragged thing. > It's been my experience that the harder you work, the less you make. I think it was about 11 AM here in Seattle when James forwarded message came thru. Needless to say that I think the customer is in England, or Scottland, or some other Europe area like that. Figure about 9 hours difference and that puts it about 8PM on a Friday night. I don't expect a response soon. I'm kind of in the same boat as you except I'm coming from a hardware point of view. Used to be a programmer MANY years ago but I wanted to get high off the rosin fumes. Now with everything going to a software solution, I find myself behind the desk more often again. However, I still do find areas where a hardware solution is still better than a software solution. > Ahhh, the smell of burning rosin, the tiny pinpricks of > twisting wire, and of course (not to beat a dead horse) the "one time" > (amazing how that works) occurrence of picking up a soldering iron from the > wrong end. Mine problem is butter fingers. Grab the soldering iron .... drop the soldering iron ... go buy new pair of pants.... -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email RemoveMElistservTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

At 06:24 PM 5/25/01 -0700, you wrote: > >Mine problem is butter fingers. Grab the soldering iron .... drop the soldering >iron ... go buy new pair of pants.... Hey, Mark, stop buying those polyester blend pants and you'll be fine. ;-) Best regards, =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speffEraseME.....interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com Contributions invited->The AVR-gcc FAQ is at: http://www.bluecollarlinux.com =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email EraseMElistservmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

At 09:40 PM 5/25/01 -0400, Spehro Pefhany wrote: >At 06:24 PM 5/25/01 -0700, you wrote: > > > >Mine problem is butter fingers. Grab the soldering iron .... drop the >soldering > >iron ... go buy new pair of pants.... > >Hey, Mark, stop buying those polyester blend pants and you'll be fine. Denim makes an acceptable sponge substitute. Also you can use your thumb, if you're quick. -- Dave's Engineering Page: http://www.dvanhorn.org I would have a link to FINDU here in my signature line, but due to the inability of sysadmins at TELOCITY to differentiate a signature line from the text of an email, I am forbidden to have it. -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email RemoveMElistservspam_OUTKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

In message <EraseME3B0F05AF.B81E6DD5spamspamBeGoneeskimo.com>, Mark Newland <RemoveMEapeKILLspamESKIMO.COM> writes >I think it was about 11 AM here in Seattle when James forwarded message came >thru. Needless to say that I think the customer is in England, or Scottland, or >some other Europe area like that. Figure about 9 hours difference and that puts >it about 8PM on a Friday night. I don't expect a response soon. It's in England, about 4 miles from where I live :-). He's even got the same surname as me!. -- Nigel. /--------------------------------------------------------------\ | Nigel Goodwin | Internet : nigelgSTOPspamspam_OUTlpilsley.co.uk | | Lower Pilsley | Web Page : http://www.lpilsley.co.uk | | Chesterfield | Official site for Shin Ki and New Spirit | | England | Ju Jitsu | \--------------------------------------------------------------/ -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList spamBeGonepiclist-unsubscribe-requestSTOPspamEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu

At 04:28 PM 5/25/01 -0700, you wrote: I was once told that the ammount one >should charge for a contract was equal to 1.5 times what you could get as an >employee somewhere doing the same thing (at least for starters). 2.0 is more like it if you intend to make a living at it, and the contracts are not very long in duration. You have to consider the costs of bidding on contracts that don't come through (because someone else got it, or because the customer decided not to go ahead with it), the cost of equipment, software, learning new things to keep up and so on. Also the paperwork, and there may be times the bill doesn't get paid. Plus, you'll be shelling out the employer's share of certain taxes as well as your own. Then there's benefits and contributions to a tax-sheltered retirement fund, vacation allowance (even a miserly 2 weeks per year is an extra 4% you have to charge). Best regards, =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" KILLspamspeffspamBeGoneinterlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com Contributions invited->The AVR-gcc FAQ is at: http://www.bluecollarlinux.com =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList EraseMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu

I agree that 2.0 is more like it if you plan to make a living at it. I also know that you have to start somewhere and if you can undercut the competition a little bit, you might start getting your foot in the door and develop a reputation. Most contractors I know started on weekends and evenings and worked up to doing it full time as their job. Do you think that one can start off at 2x rates from day one? I even know of some contractors at 3x rates and I doubt they started there. I'm asking cause I really don't know either. I usually charge for the product itself. Customer doesn't just want the engineering, they want a product as well (I.E. 250 units). I add the engineering charges into the product price. I have yet to charge for just engineering alone. Spehro Pefhany wrote: {Quote hidden}> At 04:28 PM 5/25/01 -0700, you wrote: > I was once told that the ammount one > >should charge for a contract was equal to 1.5 times what you could get as an > >employee somewhere doing the same thing (at least for starters). > > 2.0 is more like it if you intend to make a living at it, and the contracts > are not very long in duration. You have to consider the costs of bidding > on contracts that don't come through (because someone else got it, or > because the customer decided not to go ahead with it), the cost of equipment, > software, learning new things to keep up and so on. Also the paperwork, and > there may be times the bill doesn't get paid. Plus, you'll be shelling out > the employer's share of certain taxes as well as your own. Then there's > benefits and contributions to a tax-sheltered retirement fund, vacation > allowance (even a miserly 2 weeks per year is an extra 4% you have to > charge). > > Best regards, > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" > spamBeGonespeffKILLspaminterlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com > Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com > Contributions invited->The AVR-gcc FAQ is at: http://www.bluecollarlinux.com > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList > .....piclist-unsubscribe-requestspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList TakeThisOuTpiclist-unsubscribe-request.....TakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu

At 12:10 PM 5/26/01 -0700, you wrote: >I agree that 2.0 is more like it if you plan to make a living at it. I also know >that you have to start somewhere and if you can undercut the competition a little >bit, you might start getting your foot in the door and develop a reputation. It's possible, though competing on price alone is not often a good idea for a number of reasons. Someone getting started and quoting a high hourly rate with no portfolio will probably have problems, OTOH, a fixed price that represents what it would cost to do at $xxx/hour if they had a lot of experience may translate into a low hourly rate because of all the learning required. Even something simple like making out an invoice with the proper taxes added (and remitting them to the appropriate governments) takesa LOT longer for the first one or tenth one than the 50th one. Preparing a small shipment takes 1/2 hour rather than a few minutes.. and so on. I also buy engineering services, and my concerns run along the lines of "what if I agree to pay this money out (maybe put a deposit down) and the person just doesn't come through by the deadline?" "What if they produce something that looks good on the surface but is riddled with bugs/errors etc?" (this just happened to me, I ended up redoing a good part of it myself from scratch to reasonably meet the customer's expectations). "Are they qualified to do the job correctly? What degrees (engineering, compsci, etc.) and experience are they claiming to have? Are the claims credible and congruent with their "appearance"? How will this person behave if they find they have underbid the project by 50%? Will they abandon the project; just stop taking my calls and emails (it's happened), try to work things out with me, or wait till the deadline (when my .... are in the wringer) then demand more money, or will they bite the bullet and do what they promised (and a bit more) for the price they promised? >I'm asking cause I really don't know either. I usually charge for the product >itself. Customer doesn't just want the engineering, they want a product as well >(I.E. 250 units). I add the engineering charges into the product price. I have >yet to charge for just engineering alone. That's generally a good idea, IMHO, but there are a lot of people who want absolutely nothing to do with the manufacturing and all the associated costs and problems, and customers would prefer to subcontract the assembly so they pay only once for the engineering, and get the assembly done by a shop with all the good equipment and so on, or even internally. It's possible to make a living either way, depends on where you are going what path you take. ;-) Best regards, =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" TakeThisOuTspeffKILLspamspaminterlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com Contributions invited->The AVR-gcc FAQ is at: http://www.bluecollarlinux.com =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList .....piclist-unsubscribe-requestRemoveMEmitvma.mit.edu

My name is Reginald and I am a engineer in training at ITT Technical Institute in Fort Wayne, IN. Me and my classmates have decided to build an hydroponic tank for our senior project. We are building it from scratch and programming it ourselves also. So if you can provide any info on this matter it would be greatly appreciated. My email is RemoveMErsimpkins5spamBeGonehome.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shawn Yates" <spamBeGonesyates@spam@spam_OUTCARETECHNOLOGIES.COM> To: <TakeThisOuTPICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 8:05 AM Subject: Re: [OT]: PIC programming job {Quote hidden}> OK, we figured out (sort of) what to charge. > > I am interested in moonlighting and so my question becomes this: > > Where do you find people who need PIC work done? > > Ideas, experience or plain old guesses welcome. > > Shawn > > > {Original Message removed}