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'[OT]: US Govt security clearance and electronic wa'
2000\08\17@142813 by rchock, Steve

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Friends,

Sorry for these off-topic questions.

I may be changing my area of study (as well as my job) from communications
to military type work. There is a company called Signal Processing
Technologies
( http://www.sigtech.com/ )that is hiring here in arizona. The job
descriptions are
of interest to me. I have no knowledge of how this type of place does it's
hiring.
I was wondering how one goes about getting a US Government Security pass? Is
the place of employment handle that? Do you have to get some type of
qualification?
Also, does anybody know of anybooks that deal with electronic warfare?
Why do I feel I'm being watched because of this topic???? ;-)

Again,....... sorry for such off topic questions, but with the resources
here, I'm sure
somebody has some experience with this!!!!!

Best regards,
Steve

Steven Kosmerchock
Radio Frequency Systems
Phoenix,  Arizona  USA
(WORK) http://www.rfsamericas.com

http://www.geocities.com/researchtriangle/lab/6584

"Great spirits have always encountered violent oppposition from mediocre
minds."--A.Einstein

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2000\08\17@145449 by Don Hyde

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For classified govt work, the employer handles all the applications and
stuff.  Generally, if they like you, and hire you, they submit all the
paperwork and stuff.  You get interviewed, photographed, and fingerprinted.
Then the FBI investigates you.  That usually takes months.

In the meantime, they give you a desk outside the secure area, where you get
paid to sit and read magazines or something until the FBI says you're OK.

As far as certifications go, they are the ultimate bureaucratic
organization, so they believe a lot in degrees, and generally aren't set up
to comprehend previous experience that didn't lead to a degree or something.
If the ad says BSEE, there's no substitute, you must have a BSEE.  A Phd
probably won't do.

Civilian organizations by definition aren't allowed to mess around with
government security (though they are frequently hired to work on secret
stuff), so there's no such thing as a credential you can get "outside" that
means anything as far as your worthiness to handle classified information is
concerned.  The conferring of a "Secret" clearance is a very
jealously-guarded govt. prerogative.  Often a clearance from one branch of
the govt will not be accepted by another branch of the same govt.

> {Original Message removed}

2000\08\17@150122 by Andrew Kunz

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>concerned.  The conferring of a "Secret" clearance is a very
>jealously-guarded govt. prerogative.  Often a clearance from one branch of
>the govt will not be accepted by another branch of the same govt.

I was telling him offline that having a prior clearance will usually extend the
process.

I had a guy I worked with, a MSEE, who had a (TS+compartmental+cryto) clearance
in Korea when he was in charge of communications at one of our bases.

When he got a civilian job, it took over a year for them to clear him to a
Secret _because_ of his prior stuff.

Whoda thunk!?!

Andy

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2000\08\17@150912 by Dale Botkin

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On Thu, 17 Aug 2000, Kosmerchock, Steve wrote:

> I may be changing my area of study (as well as my job) from
> communications to military type work. There is a company called Signal
> Processing Technologies ( http://www.sigtech.com/ )that is hiring here
> in arizona. The job descriptions are of interest to me. I have no
> knowledge of how this type of place does it's hiring. I was wondering
> how one goes about getting a US Government Security pass? Is the place
> of employment handle that? Do you have to get some type of
> qualification? Also, does anybody know of anybooks that deal with
> electronic warfare? Why do I feel I'm being watched because of this
> topic???? ;-)

If your job requires you to hold a security clearance, your employer will
handle it.  You'll have to do the security interview, the training, put up
with the background checks, and/or whatever else may be needed -- a
CONFIDENTIAL clearance is a lot different from SECRET which is difference
from TS and the variously more restrictive permutations.  You can't just
request a security clearance for no particular reason, you have to have a
"need to know" etc.

> Again,....... sorry for such off topic questions, but with the
> resources here, I'm sure somebody has some experience with this!!!!!

I used to have to get my employees cleared for access to nuke plants to
service laser printers, etc.  It's very close to the same process. Lots
and lots of paperwork, of course, but mostly for the employer.

Dale
---
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "That's funny ..."
               -- Isaac Asimov

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2000\08\17@153509 by Dan Michaels

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Steve [the spook] wrote:
........
>I was wondering how one goes about getting a US Government Security pass? Is
>the place of employment handle that? Do you have to get some type of
>qualification?


*You* needn't worry about the details here. The govt will take care
of everything. You just fill out a form telling them everything you've
ever done in your life [esp all the bad stuff - including all your bad
thoughts], and they'll take it from there.
====================

>Also, does anybody know of anybooks that deal with electronic warfare?


I have a bunch of interesting links to this stuff, inc a good book
ref-ed on Information Warfare:

http://www.sni.net/~oricom/emerge5.htm
==============

>Why do I feel I'm being watched because of this topic???? ;-)
>

You are *not* paranoid - [really].

best regards,
- can't tell you my name

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2000\08\17@154721 by Dan Michaels

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Andy K wrote:
...........
>
>I had a guy I worked with, a MSEE, who had a (TS+compartmental+cryto) clearance
>in Korea when he was in charge of communications at one of our bases.
>
>When he got a civilian job, it took over a year for them to clear him to a
>Secret _because_ of his prior stuff.
>
>Whoda thunk!?!
>

Overseas, near the communist border - bad, really bad. Where did he
go on vacations? What did he do on weekends? Who did he know? Who
did he talk to? Where did he drink? Who frequented the places he
hung out at? Were any of his friends and acquaintances of oriental
ancestry? And that's just the "special" questions in his particular
case. They check **everything**.

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2000\08\17@164359 by Lance Allen

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On 17 Aug 2000, at 13:46, Dan Michaels wrote:

> Andy K wrote:
> ...........
> >
> >I had a guy I worked with, a MSEE, who had a (TS+compartmental+cryto) clearance
> >in Korea when he was in charge of communications at one of our bases.
> >
> >When he got a civilian job, it took over a year for them to clear him to a
> >Secret _because_ of his prior stuff.
> >
> >Whoda thunk!?!
> >
>
> Overseas, near the communist border - bad, really bad. Where did he
> go on vacations? What did he do on weekends? Who did he know? Who
> did he talk to? Where did he drink? Who frequented the places he
> hung out at? Were any of his friends and acquaintances of oriental
> ancestry? And that's just the "special" questions in his particular
> case. They check **everything**.
>
> --
As a foreign national using U.S. leading edge access control and
point monitoring gear, I had a good many laughs at U.S. govt
paranoia.
Like being absolutely, totally and completely forbidden under pain of
death to be allowed to purchase to a Ollivette 3B2 computer (as used
by the U.S. Navy) with internal encryption, for one of our access
control systems. Only to order one when I got back to N.Z. and one
promptly arrived, the local Ollivette rep said... just dont tell the U.S., it
has the encryption, what they dont know doesn't hurt them ( I got the
impression they were pissed off with the secret squirrels pushing
them around).
Similar stories with point monitoring gear and security clearances
(real fun after N.Z. had just gone anti-nuclear at the time). But thats
a LONG story.

_____________________________

Lance Allen
Technical Officer
Uni of Auckland
Psych Dept
New Zealand

http://www.psych.auckland.ac.nz

_____________________________

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2000\08\17@164815 by Walter Banks

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> When he got a civilian job, it took over a year for them to clear him to
a
> Secret _because_ of his prior stuff.
>


It can work both ways. I was a student leader in college in the 60's and
my first job required security clearance in both Canada and the US.
The company I worked for applied Tuesday and I had clearance Thursday.

I guess they already had done some checking. :)

w..

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2000\08\17@172236 by Peter Schultz

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I guess most of us in that world has to justify their job existence, even if
it is
useless and worthless.
Peter

>As a foreign national using U.S. leading edge access control and
>point monitoring gear, I had a good many laughs at U.S. govt
>paranoia.

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2000\08\17@193123 by mjb

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"Kosmerchock, Steve" wrote:
{Quote hidden}

A secret security clearance is usually pretty easy to get.  The company
that hires you has to initiate the clearance.  They will give you a
standard program that the government uses (EPSQ) that you can fill out
and then send a diskette in with all the vital information.  What you
*must* have are all the addresses of everywhere you have lived for the
past 7 years (I think), and people who can verify that (like family or
landlords).  Same goes for where you have worked and gone to school.
You also want to have a list of personal, non-family references.  Make
sure that these people know you well and aren't going to joke with the
investigator.  A comment made in jest can really extend the length of
time for your clearance.  If the first pass works out well, they can
issue an interim clearance (so you can get to work) while the full
clearance goes through.  My interim clearance took 1 month, my full
secret took 6 months, and my top secret (I got about 8 years later) took
6 months.  You need to know your history back for 10 years for a top
secret clearance.  You also must detail any criminal record that you may
have.

A lot of people get concerned about some possibly "illegal" stuff they
may have done in their past.  Don't worry about it.  As long as you tell
the truth and can swear that you don't do it anymore, you'll be fine.
Don't lie about anything!  They want to make sure it will be difficult
to blackmail you.  As long as you are honest and open about your past in
the form and with the interview with the investigator, it should sail
through.  If there is anything in your past you don't want to tell
*anyone* don't get a clearance, and work in the private sector.  You'll
probably make more money.  On the other hand, there is some really cool
work that goes on in the military/DOE.

Matt Bennett

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2000\08\17@193330 by Mark Walsh

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{Quote hidden}

I had a "secret" clearance for crypto equipment while I was in the US Navy
in the late 60's & early 70's so I thought I wouldn't have any problem at
all getting a clearance as a civilian in 74.  WRONG.  The FBI did a thorough
check on me and my wife.  Then I spent many happy hours in interviews with
DIA (Defense Intelligence Agency) investigators discussing my Japanese wife,
the time I went AWOL in Hong Kong (too close to Communist China), some silly
stunts I'd pulled in Saigon, and a general tendency towards being young,
wild, and stupid.  Fortunately, for the two years after I had gotten
married, my only crime was being young.  After hearing the list of my dumb
stunts that they were aware of, I wouldn't have blamed them if I hadn't
gotten a clearance. But apparently young wild and stupid are frequently
redundant, and I was a little older so I got a clearance.


**** * *****

(I could tell you my name, but then I'd have to kill you)

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2000\08\17@203926 by Dan Michaels

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Lance Allen wrote:
>On 17 Aug 2000, at 13:46, Dan Michaels wrote:
.............
>> Overseas, near the communist border - bad, really bad. Where did he
>> go on vacations? What did he do on weekends? Who did he know? Who
............
{Quote hidden}

..............
>
>Lance Allen
>Technical Officer
>Uni of Auckland
>Psych Dept
>New Zealand
>
>http://www.psych.auckland.ac.nz


Thanks a load, Lance!! You include **my** name at the top of the
msg where you decide to come out of the closet!!

NOTE - Echelon, Carnivore, DIA, CIA, NSA, FBI, MI6, and all other
      listening agencies - I don't know the guy --> Lance Allen
      Never heard of him. Have no known association with him.
      Never been south of the equator. He's just a name on the
      computer screen. Honest.

best regards,
- don't know, don't tell

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2000\08\17@205413 by Dan Michaels

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Matt Bennett wrote:
...........
>A lot of people get concerned about some possibly "illegal" stuff they
>may have done in their past.  Don't worry about it.  As long as you tell
>the truth and can swear that you don't do it anymore, you'll be fine.
>Don't lie about anything!  They want to make sure it will be difficult
>to blackmail you.  As long as you are honest and open about your past in
>the form and with the interview with the investigator, it should sail
>through.  If there is anything in your past you don't want to tell
>*anyone* don't get a clearance, and work in the private sector.
............


I heard exactly the same thing from someone who got a clearance just
a few years ago. She said, regarding the baby-boomer generation, they
figure literally everyone has tried various illegal something or others,
such as smoking oregano [code name], etc, and that you might look a
little guilty by *not* admitting to anything [unless there is possibly
a "Saint" in front of your name - then you're ok]. Best thing is to
just fess up to everything, or not bother showing up at all. Holding
something back is probably considered a worse crime today.

Also, another thing, depending upon where you are applying, lie
detector tests [useless or no], and/or drug tests, may be something
you might be looking forward to on a regular basis. To some extent,
you are no longer completely your own person once you go in for
this sort of job. [in truth, the happiest day I think I ever had
was the day I quit my defense company job - long time ago - and
became a private citizen].

cheers,
- danM

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2000\08\22@030129 by Ian Hynes

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Dan Michaels wrote:
>
> Lance Allen wrote:
> >On 17 Aug 2000, at 13:46, Dan Michaels wrote:
> .............
> >> Overseas, near the communist border - bad, really bad. Where did he
> >> go on vacations? What did he do on weekends? Who did he know? Who
> ............
> >> --
> >As a foreign national using U.S. leading edge access control and
> >point monitoring gear, I had a good many laughs at U.S. govt
> >paranoia.
>

Hey you guys, I'm just curious. How does the US govt - CIA etc - go
about recruiting their spies? Our spy agencies - ASIO & ASIS - get
laughed at all the time 'cause they advertise in newspapers for
staff. You know - "interesting career in foreign locations, Aust
citizen, university degree, foreign (usually Asian)language desirable"
...
sorta thing.

Ian

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2000\08\22@105923 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 04:55 PM 8/22/00 +1000, you wrote:

>Hey you guys, I'm just curious. How does the US govt - CIA etc - go
>about recruiting their spies? Our spy agencies - ASIO & ASIS - get
>laughed at all the time 'cause they advertise in newspapers for
>staff. You know - "interesting career in foreign locations, Aust
>citizen, university degree, foreign (usually Asian)language desirable"

"They" actively recruit very good (or would that be very bad?) hackers.
These are just the "specialists" though, not the bulk of the employees.

Best regards,

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