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'[OT] Car problem elimination'
2009\02\21@100623 by John Chung

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Hi guys,

Need some advise with my current car. I could start the car
without no problems at all. This was about an hour of rest.
While driving the ABS light turned on*Checked through my service manual that something was wrong with my ABS*. Decided to turn off the car. Attempted to immediately restart the car again. But it failed. There was some clicks from the engine but NO cranks. Left it idle for 5 mins. Could start the car
immediately!

I am not sure that is it the battery fault. Since batteries that go bad
can't start the car period..... Or at least start the car once and can't restart again despite waiting for it to recover.....

Any clues?

Thanks,
John Chung


     

2009\02\21@104304 by Master Yager

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Tell us a little about the car.

On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 10:05 AM, John Chung <spam_OUTkravnusTakeThisOuTspamyahoo.com> wrote:

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> -

2009\02\21@111519 by Carl Denk

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First thing I would check is electrical connections, both ends of
battery cables and any wires, cables going to the starter, engine, and
grounds to the body. By check, I mean remove the cable end, check for
corrosion and clean, reinstall. Had once a main cable to V-8 starter
looked good, but when put a voltmeter on the stud and the cable end,
cranked engine, big voltage drop. Took the nut off, wire brushed, put it
back together again, OK. Since you have the service manual, the
electrical section should tell the location of all the grounds. Check
the ABS, and car's computer ground paths back to battery.

What's the temperature, if cold, crazy things happen. With temps 0F, 27
Hp. Kohler engine wouldn't crank, replaced starter solenoid, all OK. Cut
open old solenoid, corrosion/arcing deposits on one pole of very beefy
copper contacts caused enough resistance for a no crank. This engine in
slightly warmer temps started reliably for several years.

John Chung wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2009\02\21@121204 by John Chung

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Good tips there but does not quite explain the issue with the
5 minutes idle period I need before starting the car again...

BTW, it is a Toyota Corolla, 1997 model.

Thanks,
John

--- On Sat, 2/21/09, Carl Denk <.....cdenkKILLspamspam@spam@alltel.net> wrote:

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> --

2009\02\21@124709 by Carl Denk

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Could be a moisture or thermal problem, maybe never will know, just know
it doesn't happen anymore. :) What is the temperature?? That car is 11
years old, that's about when corrosion sets in. Pull apart all the
connectors in the circuit area and look for a corroded pin. That vehicle
should be OBDII, scan it, see if you come up with any codes. Probably
the ABS has it's own scanner plug. There might be a way to get codes out
of that without the scanner. Maybe connect an analog voltmeter and count
the blips of the needle.

John Chung wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>> --

2009\02\21@132157 by Thomas C Sefranek

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 ----- Original Message -----
 From: John Chung
 To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
 Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 10:05 AM
 Subject: [OT] Car problem elimination


 Hi guys,

 Need some advise with my current car. I could start the car
 without no problems at all. This was about an hour of rest.
 While driving the ABS light turned on*Checked through my service manual that something was wrong with my ABS*. Decided to turn off the car. Attempted to immediately restart the car again. But it failed. There was some clicks from the engine but NO cranks. Left it idle for 5 mins. Could start the car
 immediately!

 I am not sure that is it the battery fault. Since batteries that go bad
 can't start the car period..... Or at least start the car once and can't restart again despite waiting for it to recover.....

 Any clues?

 Thanks,
 John Chung

Our Toyota had a starter solenoid problem that sounds like yours.
IT was a (New) rebuilt starter.
The problem is the copper disk used for the high current connection.
Old starters have this problem on all our toyotas! (Truck and car)
each attempt to start rotates the disk slightly.
It would start after several attempts when the disk rotated to an area that was conductive.

Perhaps this will help.

Tom
 *
 |  __O    Thomas C. Sefranek  KILLspamtcsKILLspamspamcmcorp.com
 |_-\<,_   Amateur Radio Operator: WA1RHP
 (*)/ (*)  Bicycle mobile on 145.41, 448.625 MHz

ARRL Instructor, Technical Specialist, VE Contact.
hamradio.cmcorp.com/inventory/Inventory.html
http://www.harvardrepeater.org

2009\02\21@153600 by cdb

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:: 5 minutes idle period I need before starting the car again..

Is the car automatic? I had a Mitsubishi once where the park safety
solenoid was worn, when hot it would re-engage, meaning the car
couldn't be started until it had cooled down.

But if your ABS light is coming on, this sounds more like a short or a
failure in the EC box.

Colin
--
cdb, RemoveMEcolinTakeThisOuTspambtech-online.co.uk on 22/02/2009

Web presence: http://www.btech-online.co.uk  

Hosted by:  http://www.1and1.co.uk/?k_id=7988359







2009\02\21@161438 by Sean Breheny

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Could it just be that the battery is on the edge of end of life? If
you turn the lights on and try to start it, do they get very dim? I
recently helped a friend with her car and the situation was that when
she tried to start the car, you could hear a rapid clicking but no
starter motor motion. It turned out that the battery had enough
current-sourcing ability to pull in the starter solenoid but as soon
as the starter motor connected, the voltage would drop out and the
solenoid would open. A jump start got it going.

If the battery were dying in such a way that it developed an
intermittent internal short, could it be that the ABS light came on
because of low voltage? I don't know enough about cars to say, but I
have heard of flooded lead acid batteries shedding debris internally
and shorting.

I would measure the battery voltage, try to start it, and then measure
the battery voltage again. If it does start, it should jump up to
around 14V. If it fails to start, and the battery voltage has dropped
to something like 10V and is slowly recovering, then the battery is at
least drained, possibly at end of life.

How old is the battery?

Sean


On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 3:35 PM, cdb <spamBeGonecolinspamBeGonespambtech-online.co.uk> wrote:
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> -

2009\02\21@183930 by John Chung

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Hi Sean,

If I recall it is about 1 year old. Low voltage could result in ABS lights turned on? Hmmm.

Regards,
John


--- On Sun, 2/22/09, Sean Breheny <RemoveMEshb7spamTakeThisOuTcornell.edu> wrote:

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2009\02\21@205011 by Sean Breheny

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Hi John,

Hmmm, if the battery is only 1 year old then I doubt it is the
problem. In my original email, I had a question mark after my
suggestion that maybe low voltage could cause the ABS light to come
on. I really do not know whether that is possible or not.

Sean


On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 6:38 PM, John Chung <RemoveMEkravnusTakeThisOuTspamspamyahoo.com> wrote:
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2009\02\22@083654 by Carl Denk

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Never discount a component due to age. The young ones use diapers, the
old ones use depends. :) :)

Sean Breheny wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2009\02\22@093747 by Tamas Rudnai

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> But if your ABS light is coming on, this sounds more like a short or a
> failure in the EC box.

That's what I was thinking of too. With my car if the computer of the engine
tilts then have to stop and wait for a while until I can start again. It
happened to me once that I over spined the engine and had to pull over to
let me to restart. (The cruise control was on and I put the gear to neutral
so the system gave a full throttle - silly one...)

Tamas



On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 8:35 PM, cdb <.....colinspamRemoveMEbtech-online.co.uk> wrote:

> But if your ABS light is coming on, this sounds more like a short or a
> failure in the EC box.
>



--
Rudonix DoubleSaver
http://www.rudonix.com

2009\02\22@110938 by Carl Denk

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Ah, yes, and that's also why when on possible slippery pavement, never
use the cruise control. Depending where the cruise speed sensor is
located, the cruise may think the vehicle is losing speed, adds
throttle, wheel spins more, and more throttle. With sliding friction on
ice much less than static friction, the vehicle is not going to respond
to steering input, and the vehicle will go wherever it wants. :)

Tamas Rudnai wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2009\02\22@112715 by jim

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Check the oil pressure switch and/or your oil pump.

Jim



----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Denk" <spamBeGonecdenk@spam@spamspam_OUTalltel.net>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <TakeThisOuTpiclistspamspammit.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] Car problem elimination


{Quote hidden}

> --

2009\02\22@184734 by Richard Prosser

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Check the circuit that prevents starter motor operation when in gear
(if it's an auto).

RP

2009/2/23 jim <RemoveMEjimEraseMEspamspam_OUTjpes.com>:
> Check the oil pressure switch and/or your oil pump.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

2009\02\22@185127 by Master Yager

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You should not have either one of your problems interacting with each other.
ABS is a separate system then starting. If your voltage does go low enough
it may cause your ABS light to come on because of the high current required
to maintain about 2000PSI for the ABS to work correctly. If you stop your
engine it will take about 300Amps to get the starter going then about
100Amps to keep it turning, during this you still need a minimum of 10Volts
to run the ECU/ECM the computer, what ever you want to call it. Most
batteries that are in good shape but not being charged will die while
driving and your dead in the water when you shut it off. Wait 5~10 minutes
and you will regain enough to start your car one time, If your charging
system is in good shape, Then your problem will most likely not come back if
you clean your terminals, yes. that simple, I've had it happen.

On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 11:27 AM, jim <@spam@jimRemoveMEspamEraseMEjpes.com> wrote:

> Check the oil pressure switch and/or your oil pump.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

2009\02\22@220139 by Christopher Cole

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On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 01:20:30PM -0500, Thomas C Sefranek wrote:
> Our Toyota had a starter solenoid problem that sounds like yours.
> IT was a (New) rebuilt starter.
> The problem is the copper disk used for the high current connection.
> Old starters have this problem on all our toyotas! (Truck and car)
> each attempt to start rotates the disk slightly.
> It would start after several attempts when the disk rotated to an area that was conductive.

I have a 1997 Toyota Corolla and had this same problem.  I fixed it by replacing thr starter contacts.

Here is a good reference:

http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/maintenance/starter/

Here is a good pic of a bad starter contact vs. a good one:

http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/maintenance/starter/starter9.jpg

It does not explain the ABS light, perhaps this is a separate problem?

Last week I had an ignition switch go bad on another car, where the car would randomly quit running while driving it
- and in this case, my ABS light *did* come on sometimes - but that was probably due to gitching as a result of the
flakey ignition switch.

Good luck,
-Chris

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