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PICList Thread
'[OT] General aviation user fee'
2009\06\04@164300 by Vitaliy

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I know there are many pilots here, do you guys know what this is all about?

http://www.generalaviationservesamerica.com/




2009\06\04@230033 by Lee Jones

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> I know there are many pilots here, do you guys know what
> this is all about?
>
> http://www.generalaviationservesamerica.com/

It's part of the AOPA (Aircraft Owners & Pilots Association,
aopa.org) campaign to promote the value of general aviation
in America and it's contribuiton to the economy.  Aviation
is an integral part of our transportation infrastructure.

FAA & air traffic control system is primarily funded by taxes
on aviation fuel and taxes on airline passengers.  There has
been a push to add user fees.  I think user fees are a bad idea.

                                               Lee Jones

2009\06\05@004418 by Nathan House

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Here's a good article on this subject that I have bookmarked:
http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/la-userfees.html

Flying is too expensive as-is. I had to stop training when I almost have my
private pilots certificate, because I ran out of that pesky green stuff. Now
they want to make it MORE expensive?

Maybe they should take a look at the UK where - because of fees - there are
fewer pilots, and why people come to the US to train.

On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 10:04 PM, Lee Jones <spam_OUTleeTakeThisOuTspamfrumble.claremont.edu>wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2009\06\05@085103 by Carl Denk

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This is from a close friend of mine that has money, owns a cabin class
Cessna twin, and 3 jet fighter trainers.

It's been a continuous string of attempts to implement user fees, each
fought back by the GA lobbyist groups.  Now that the liberals are in
control and demonizing all things general aviation, it's getting much
more difficult to stave off.  I'm expecting that we will have a user fee
system, at least like Canada and probably more like the U.K., if Obama
wins a second term.  They've even attempted to sneak it in as a rider
that was barely mentioned, in a bill unrelated to aviation.  No doubt it
would have a chilling impact on G.A., but as I'm sure you know, G.A.
is already waning.  There are fewer and fewer hours being flown and the
traffic is way down at airports like Lorain.  People are still
interested in flying but the expense is very high and the new LSA's are
all the rage.  They are fun, but they lack any real capability beyond
the very bottom of the scale.  

-- LSA = Light sport aircraft - requires only a driver's license to fly
in somewhat limited air space. C...


Vitaliy wrote:
> I know there are many pilots here, do you guys know what this is all about?
>
> http://www.generalaviationservesamerica.com/
>
>
>
>
>  

2009\06\05@102722 by M.L.

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On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 8:50 AM, Carl Denk <.....cdenkKILLspamspam@spam@windstream.net> wrote:

> This is from a close friend of mine that has money, owns a cabin class
> Cessna twin, and 3 jet fighter trainers.
>
> It's been a continuous string of attempts to implement user fees, each
> fought back by the GA lobbyist groups.  Now that the liberals are in
> control and demonizing all things general aviation, it's getting much
> more difficult to stave off.  I'm expecting that we will have a user fee
> system, at least like Canada and probably more like the U.K., if Obama
> wins a second term.  They've even attempted to sneak it in as a rider
> that was barely mentioned, in a bill unrelated to aviation.
>

Politics is off-off-topic. So rather than try to be witty and insert random
cheap jabs about republicans and conservatives, I'm just going to say "shut
the ... up" about politics on the piclist, before it goes any further.

Thanks

-
Martin

2009\06\05@104831 by Nathan House

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Martin,

>Politics is off-off-topic

Did you not notice the "[OT]" tag? Looks like Off Topic to me :-)

>So rather than try to be witty and insert random
>cheap jabs about republicans and conservatives

Actually, it seemed like his friend was saying what might happen with Obama,
who is rather clearly a democrat, not a "republican" or "conservative."

>I'm just going to say "shut
>the ... up" about politics on the piclist, before it goes any further.

It's a free country. You can say what you want, even if it makes you look
unprofessional. HOWEVER, I hope people ignore you, because GA fees is a VERY
serious issue and has the right to be heard. And people have the right to
discuss it for the same reason that you have the right to say '"shut the ...
up".'

>Thanks

Your welcome :-)

-Nathan

2009\06\05@105840 by M.L.

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On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 10:48 AM, Nathan House <nathanpiclistspamKILLspamgmail.com>wrote:

{Quote hidden}

No, Nathan, you don't understand.

Politics is not allowed on the PIClist. So say whatever you want about GA
fees, but keep it apolitical.

<piclist.com/techref/piclist/index.htm#TOPICS>
"This label is for posts that are completely off the topic of PICs and
engineering. The only thing we don't (ever) want to see are religious
(unprovable beliefs), hate, or political messages."

I don't see how this makes me look unprofessional. There have been many
flames and fires over the years over politics, religion, rudeness, etc.
Being strict about it is the only way to keep it from happening again. I'm
sorry if my terseness hurts your feelings, but people don't have a right to
discuss politics on the piclist.

-
Martin

2009\06\05@114740 by Nathan House

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>There have been many
>flames and fires over the years over politics, religion, rudeness, etc.
>Being strict about it is the only way to keep it from happening again. I'm
>sorry if my terseness hurts your feelings, but people don't have a right to
>discuss politics on the piclist.

Firstly, he simply quoted something that his friend said, that happened to
be entirely relevant. Secondly, his friend stated *facts. *One definition of
"politics" that I found from Princeton was "the opinion you hold with
respect to political questions." The *fact* is, democrats currently are in
majority control of the house, the senate, and the presidency. That's not
opinion, but rather fact.

When his friend said:

>I'm expecting that we will have a user fee
>system, at least like Canada and probably more like the U.K., if Obama
>wins a second term

I can see how that might upset supporters of President Obama. What he could
have said, is something like "if policy-makers in Washington keep things
moving in their current direction, I'm expecting that we will have a user
fee system, at least like Canada and probably more like the U.K.." That has
the *same* meaning, but maybe it wouldn't upset people so much?

I think you're overreacting. It's fine to say no-politics on the PIClist,
but to freak out because a person quotes a friend saying something relevant
and true is absurd.

2009\06\05@121000 by Bob Blick

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Carl - You know better than to bring politics into the Piclist.

Nathan - You too.

Thanks,

Bob

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - IMAP accessible web-mail

2009\06\05@130108 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> I think you're overreacting. It's fine to say no-politics on the PIClist,
> but to freak out because a person quotes a friend saying something relevant
> and true is absurd.

As a non-USA PIClist member

- I like the iron rules 'no politics', 'no religion'. Admins: please
enforce these rules! Overreacting? A ban for life (for offenders), that
would be overreacting!

- Even without those rules I would not be interested in your domestic
political quarrels. Please keep them elsewhere, even if they were not
banned.

--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2009\06\05@131335 by Alan B. Pearce

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>I'm just going to say "shut the ... up" about politics
>on the piclist, before it goes any further.

Looked like quite reasonable comment on a possible situation to me, and not
politics at all, certainly not a political argument.

If you want politics try what is happening in the UK government at the
moment.

2009\06\05@131736 by M.L.

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On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 1:00 PM, Wouter van Ooijen <.....wouterKILLspamspam.....voti.nl> wrote:

> > I think you're overreacting. It's fine to say no-politics on the PIClist,
> > but to freak out because a person quotes a friend saying something
> relevant
> > and true is absurd.
>
> As a non-USA PIClist member
>
> - I like the iron rules 'no politics', 'no religion'. Admins: please
> enforce these rules! Overreacting? A ban for life (for offenders), that
> would be overreacting!
>
> - Even without those rules I would not be interested in your domestic
> political quarrels. Please keep them elsewhere, even if they were not
> banned.
>
> --
>
> Wouter van Ooijen
>
>
I may have been a little strong reacting to a quoted friend, but I could see
where it was headed. For better or worse it is what it is.

-
Martin

2009\06\05@132633 by Bob Blick

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On Fri, 5 Jun 2009 18:14:07 +0100, "Alan B. Pearce"
<EraseMEAlan.B.Pearcespam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTstfc.ac.uk> said:
> >I'm just going to say "shut the ... up" about politics
> >on the piclist, before it goes any further.
>
> Looked like quite reasonable comment on a possible situation to me, and
> not
> politics at all, certainly not a political argument.
>
> If you want politics try what is happening in the UK government at the
> moment.

No, we don't want politics at all, and it clearly was political. When I
said no, I meant NO, and I was speaking from my admin position. If you
disagree, find another forum to do it from. The Piclist is not for
politics or political opinion. I have made this clear many times and I
am now taking names.

-Bob

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - Access your email from home and the web

2009\06\05@140443 by Carl Denk

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Though I have had a pilots license for more than 40 years, and a plane
owner for 11 years, I have not been active or familiar with the latest
developments in the area for 4 years, and felt that rather than my dated
response, I forwarded the question to someone I trusted would present a
good summation of the topic. I believed his response to be appropriate,
covering in basic terms the situation. This battle has been going on for
some years with both major political powers in control of both the
executive and legislative branches of the USA. If neither party has been
able to move forward, is that political.

Sorry if I offended someone, in the future, I'll try to keep my
responses more conservative. Probably will have to answer the question.
"It's political madness."  Maybe if I would have just put up the link to
the AOPA (aircraft owners and pilots association) article, nothing would
have been said, but I thought that to be too one sided.

Perhaps, other topics should be classed political, like outsourcing,
unemployment, job seeking. :)

Maybe this is getting to be political on politics. :) :)

2009\06\05@150933 by Vitaliy

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Carl Denk wrote:
> Though I have had a pilots license for more than 40 years, and a plane
> owner for 11 years, I have not been active or familiar with the latest
> developments in the area for 4 years, and felt that rather than my dated
> response, I forwarded the question to someone I trusted would present a
> good summation of the topic. I believed his response to be appropriate,
> covering in basic terms the situation. This battle has been going on for
> some years with both major political powers in control of both the
> executive and legislative branches of the USA. If neither party has been
> able to move forward, is that political.

I was reading some kind of technical article, when I saw the ad with
"Harrison Ford. Actor, pilot." Since I've just started my pilot training, I
thought I'd ask if anyone could provide more information on what it was all
about.

Is it known how much the user fees will be? City of Phoenix recently added a
user fee, but it is only $1 per takeoff, and only for "business" (i.e.,
stuff that makes money -- like pilot training) flights.

Vitaliy

2009\06\05@155955 by Carl Denk

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When we quit flying 4 years ago, for non commercial flights, generally
there was no landing fees at most airports, but could be up to $50 for
say Chicago's Ohare, New York's Kennedy. Cleveland's Lakefront airport
was $2.00 per day parking, and we would fly there, park for a few hours,
and shop or do business downtown Cleveland, with a short walk This was
cheaper than $5 vehicle parking, plus an enjoyable 10 minute flight.
Overnight parking could be free, free with fuel purchase, or $2 - $10
per night. Many times a courtesy car available free for a couple of
hours. It's a whole different situation for say a Learjet, where at a
smaller airport there might be a landing fee of $25, and parking
overnight at $25. Our small plane hangar rent was $165/month. The plane
cruised at 200 MPH on 10 GPH of 100LL gasoline. Cleveland to Atlanta was
less than 3 hours, and fuel costs about equal to our 30 mpg Mercury Cougar.

Security has changed much since 9/11. Used to be people could come and
look at planes and talk to crews, owners pretty much freely. Today,
it's, big fences, buzzed in to gate, go only where to need to be. Our
plane was in a community hangar with 30 other planes including a
LearJet, and bigger twins. People could walk in talk, today, you are
allowed only in hangar if you have a plane there, or guest of owner.

Vitaliy wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2009\06\05@185110 by Carl Denk

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The below represents current/recent past experiences.

For future user fees, I have heard:
$5 - $10 per contact with air traffic control, could run to more than
$100 for even a short flight.
$25 per flight plan. Instrument flight plans are required to fly when
visibility is poor. Visual flight plans are optional, primarily to get
search and rescue if you don't arrive at destination, but also in the
process of filing one, the weather briefer that the pilot talks to, will
make every effort to advise the pilot of weather, and other issues that
could effect the safety of the flight including runway conditions, and
radio outages.

Carl Denk wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2009\06\05@212151 by Vitaliy

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Carl Denk wrote:
> For future user fees, I have heard:
> $5 - $10 per contact with air traffic control, could run to more than
> $100 for even a short flight.
> $25 per flight plan. Instrument flight plans are required to fly when
> visibility is poor. Visual flight plans are optional, primarily to get
> search and rescue if you don't arrive at destination, but also in the
> process of filing one, the weather briefer that the pilot talks to, will
> make every effort to advise the pilot of weather, and other issues that
> could effect the safety of the flight including runway conditions, and
> radio outages.

That sounds excessive. What is the source of this information?

Vitaliy

2009\06\05@223334 by Carl Denk

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As I said, it's been at least 4 years since I was around aviation, and
as I recollect, that's what was talked about back then, and yes we
thought it excessive. That's the issue. As I understand there are
countries that have such charges, I thought some are Western Europe.
Maybe someone in German, France, and U.K. could comment.

Generally small planes try to stay away from the largest airports, but
flying into one is no different that a middle sized. The controller
keeps you separated, do your homework as to airport layout, radio
frequencies, procedures, just follow directions. It's not a place for
the student pilot, but not crazy like Oshkosh or Sun-N-Fun fly-ins. Some
airports (and doesn't necessarily mean small), the controllers are just
more accommodating. It's just like driving I-90 around Chicago, stay in
your lane, go with the flow of the traffic and you will be OK. Had
daughter, just started driving, hard uphill ramp, merge I-70, across the
Ohio River bridge, a tunnel, road splits many ways, all within less than
2 miles. She said this was confusing. I was tutoring, and she learned
why we had we had studied the map before.

As for current charges, one could Google the airport identifier (put a K
in front for USA airports, like KCLE for Cleveland), and probably AirNav
or FlightAware would pop up, and chase some links from there, and you
can see the current fees and fuel prices. The places that sell fuel,
parking, hangar, repairs is called a FBO (Fixed Based Operator).

Carl Denk wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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