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PICList Thread
'[OT] New Orleans'
2005\09\02@134148 by Vasile Surducan

face picon face
There is no much difference between a thirld word country and a
powerfull one when a tragety is happening. Grown disperation and
imprevisible people's reaction is almost the same. Maybe some of you
could help them somehow.

sadly,
Vasile

2005\09\02@143014 by Sean Schouten

face picon face
What happened to the thousands of troops that should be delivering aid and such on the home-front in the us? I would of thought that the mighty military would be busy with full-scale rescue and aid operations, which they don't seem to have running. In my eyes it's more like the odd soldier has been sent on some field trip in which they have been instructed to shoot anything that moves and has some personal item in it's arm, there for remotely resembling a looter. I don't even seem to spot too many 'troops' on television. Whenever I do, they seem to be busy shooting looters rather than helping people.

You don't have to tell me that tragedy has unfolded in New-Orleans; I can see that with my own two eyes. I just keep on wondering why George W Bush doesn't push to increase aid and rescue efforts. I would almost suspect him of being afraid not to get a bonus by spending the federal money reserves (is there even any money?) on what they should be spent on! Fort Knox, open ye doors!

I remember that a documentary on discovery stated that the Dutch can learn a thing or two from the US when it comes to water management. I wonder how that can be the case if the dutch have been at it for over 700 years? I don't think that New Orleans is even that old... I know that I sound like a total bastard, but the part about the dutch learning a thing or two actually made me laugh.
One thing I found terrible is the shear stupidity that has overcome some people. I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw some people crawl out of the sewer they where hiding in! Isn't that the dumbest place to hide in case of flooding etc?

Anyhow. I do wish all the poor souls lots and lots of luck and hope that this is an eye opener for others.

Sean.

2005\09\02@144829 by David Van Horn

picon face
> I remember that a documentary on discovery stated that the Dutch can
learn
> a
> thing or two from the US when it comes to water management. I wonder
how
> that can be the case if the dutch have been at it for over 700 years?
I
> don't think that New Orleans is even that old... I know that I sound
like
> a total bastard, but the part about the dutch learning a thing or two
> actually made me laugh.

Well, unless the French discovered America in the late 1200's it seems
unlikely that New Orleans is that old..  If they did, they managed to
keep it secret pretty well.


> One thing I found terrible is the shear stupidity that has overcome
some
> people.

Shear stupidity?  That would be running with scissors I think.


I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw some people crawl out of the
> sewer they where hiding in! Isn't that the dumbest place to hide in
case
> of flooding etc?

Seems unlikely to have been a sewer per se, but in any case, the water
has quit rising, and it's all mixed together so inside is probably just
as clean as outside.  It really depends on what they were hiding from.



2005\09\02@145038 by Matthew Miller

flavicon
face
On Fri, Sep 02, 2005 at 08:41:47PM +0300, Vasile Surducan wrote:
>  There is no much difference between a thirld word country and a
> powerfull one when a tragety is happening. Grown disperation and
> imprevisible people's reaction is almost the same. Maybe some of you
> could help them somehow.

I say there is a great amount of difference between the U.S. and a thrid
world country. We (the U.S.) have the materials and capability to ease the
suffering, but it seems that there has been a failure somewhere and actions
that should have been taken earlier were not.

What can an individual do? There have been a lot of suggestions. One of the
best I've seen is that households in the gulf states, which sustained little
damage, offer to take in folks if they are able. The population of New
Orleans alone is about 1/2 million; these people will have to live somewhere
for the next few months. While donating money won't meet immediate needs,
there are plenty of places to send donations: the Red Cross, and even the
Publix food stores on the east coast accept donations at the checkout
counter.

The folks along the gulf will be grateful for help of any type.

Matthew.

--
It is well known that MS products don't call free() after a malloc().
The Unix community wish them good luck for their future developments.

2005\09\02@150525 by Mauricio Jancic

flavicon
face
>> Well, unless the French discovered America in the late 1200's it seems

Actually the Spanish discovered America... may be you that was part of the
sarcasm, but I didn't get it that way...

Regards,

Mauricio Jancic
Janso Desarrollos - Microchip Consultants Program Member
spam_OUTinfoTakeThisOuTspamjanso.com.ar
http://www.janso.com.ar
(54) 11 - 4542 - 3519

2005\09\02@152027 by David Van Horn

picon face
> >> Well, unless the French discovered America in the late 1200's it
seems
>
> Actually the Spanish discovered America... may be you that was part of
the
> sarcasm, but I didn't get it that way...
>

I'm pretty sure the INDIANS discovered it first, though it seems they
didn't file paperwork with the Vatican and therefore got hosed.




2005\09\02@152329 by John Ferrell

face picon face
Using US troops for police action against US citizens is very tricky
business.
I believe that there is so much going on that coordination of efforts is a
major problem. Other than helicopters, I don't think our military is well
prepared for this type of mission.

Even when survivors can be picked up there is the problem of where to put
them. Looting is probably the lowest priority concern at this time. In fact,
in many cases, that will be key to survival.

The inability to maintain law & order in this disaster will have long
lasting consequences.

Much of the oil business in the area is Dutch owned. It is a little early to
be placing blame. At this time we need to care for the living and bury the
dead.

John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2005\09\02@152507 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
No matter how well prepared one is for natural disaster, there is
*always* some way to improve it.

I don't believe that any agency was quite prepared for this disaster.
There are certianly things that, in hindsight, we can now look at and
say, "It's stupid that x, y, or z were not done!"

The major problem is likely going to be the same problem that plagues
every project that involves more than one person.  Lack of
information, an inability to coordinate, determining who has authority
to make costly decisions, etc.

In this case there is no communications path.  It takes a day for most
relief agencies to stage their operations, but they have to wait for
instructions and authorization before they can enact their plans.  The
Red Cross can't just truck in there and start distributing supplies
they first have to
- Assess the situation
- Analyze where best to place resources
- Gain authorization and plan both entrance and escape routes
- Maintain communication with each group
and a dozen other tasks.  Furthermore the disaster is of such a
magnitude that you can't simply break everyone off into groups and let
them do their own thing - the entire organization has to work
together, and that can be difficult due to the way these organizations
are structured.

That's just one organization.  In this case we have to coordinate the
efforts of, at minimum, 5 federal and national organizations.

These efforts are stymied by lack of adequate communications.  You
can't send your group out there until you have a way of contacting
them at any time, and vice versa.  The ARRL is trying to send in the
hams, but that's yet another organization that has to get
authorization.

Lastly, once people within the city started shooting at helicopters...
Well, everyone pretty much pulled back and waited (and in some places
is still waiting) for law enforcement.

But the reality is that we're focussing on one city that was 90%
evacuated by the time the flooding occured.  Over 90,000 square miles
were severely damaged by the hurricane, and there are far more people
who need help outside the tragedy that is New Orleans than there are
inside that need help.  Those rescue and relief operations are, very
likely, running much more efficiently and smoothly than the televised
chaos we are currently consuming.

Let's do finger pointing, oh, say next year.

-Adam

On 9/2/05, Sean Schouten <.....dev.seantechKILLspamspam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2005\09\02@152722 by Marc Nicholas

flavicon
face
Actually, the Welsh 'discovered' America before the Spanish. ;-)

-marc

On Fri, 2 Sep 2005, Mauricio Jancic wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2005\09\02@152924 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Actually the Spanish discovered America... may be you that
> was part of the
> sarcasm, but I didn't get it that way...

I never knew the vikings were spanish! And wasn't that Columbus guy an
Italian? (not that Italy existed at that time.)

And 'discover' is a bit strange in this context. Would you say that the
first native indian arriving in Europe discovered Europe?

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\09\02@162401 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Wouter,

On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 21:29:26 +0200, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

> > Actually the Spanish discovered America... may be you that
> > was part of the
> > sarcasm, but I didn't get it that way...
>
> I never knew the vikings were spanish!

LOL!  Although they got as far as Greenland, I'm not sure there's evidence they got the the American mainland.  
John Cabot is reckoned to be the first to do that, certainly before Columbus.

> And wasn't that Columbus guy an Italian? (not that Italy existed at that time.)

Well there is some argument as to whether he was from Genoa (where he was born) or Portugal, where he moved
later.

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\09\02@163504 by Roberts II, Charles K.

picon face

I am going to go help the local Rotary Club load up some trucks with
food and water after I get off of work today. I will probably donate
some money and supplies to the effort too.

I have heard that they need folks to do body recovery in LA and MS, if I
can get time off of work I may go volunteer for that. I have done that
sort of thing before as a firefighter / EMT, though I am not actively
doing that sort of work now.

Don't be discouraged by what you see on TV, there are a lot of people
that are doing there best to help. It just seems to be that the folks
that are doing there best are not the ones calling the shots down there.



Charles K Roberts II
OAK RIDGE, TN




-----Original Message-----
From: .....piclist-bouncesKILLspamspam.....mit.edu [EraseMEpiclist-bouncesspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmit.edu] On Behalf
Of Vasile Surducan
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 1:42 PM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: [OT] New Orleans

There is no much difference between a thirld word country and a
powerfull one when a tragety is happening. Grown disperation and
imprevisible people's reaction is almost the same. Maybe some of you
could help them somehow.

sadly,
Vasile

2005\09\02@163849 by James Newton, Host

face picon face
> What happened to the thousands of troops that should be
> delivering aid and such on the home-front in the us?

Ahem... In case you haven't heard, they are overseas right now lowering our
gasoline prices... You have noticed the reduction in gas prices right?

And before anyone has the BALLS to say something about "humanitarian" this
or WMD's that, read this page:
http://www.massmind.org/other/war4oil That is SOLID (but very
under-reported) proof that oil is was and will be the only reason for the US
invasion of Iraq.

{Quote hidden}

The funding for improved dykes and FEMA's budget was CUT by GW just before
the invasion of Iraq. This was part of the creation of the "Homeland
Security" force (aka the S.S.)
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/02/levee.criticism.reut/index.html

> You don't have to tell me that tragedy has unfolded in
> New-Orleans; I can see that with my own two eyes. I just keep
> on wondering why George W Bush doesn't push to increase aid
> and rescue efforts. I would almost suspect him of being
> afraid not to get a bonus by spending the federal money
> reserves (is there even any money?) on what they should be
> spent on! Fort Knox, open ye doors!

He seems to have other priorities. One last game of golf (!) and a photo op
at North Island (!) before cutting his vacation (!) to return to DC (two
days after the storm!), just to name an example. Others would be avoiding
the mothers of soldiers killed in Iraq
http://www.massmind.org/techref/other/peace.htm

> I remember that a documentary on discovery stated that the
> Dutch can learn a thing or two from the US when it comes to
> water management. I wonder how that can be the case if the
> dutch have been at it for over 700 years? I don't think that
> New Orleans is even that old... I know that I sound like a
> total bastard, but the part about the dutch learning a thing
> or two actually made me laugh.

Our technology may well be more advanced, but the Dutch are smart enough to
actually FUND the construction of water management projects. FEMA has been
predicting this specific disaster for years and has never been able to get
the necessary funds from the Bush administrations.

> One thing I found terrible is the shear stupidity that has
> overcome some people. I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw
> some people crawl out of the sewer they where hiding in!
> Isn't that the dumbest place to hide in case of flooding etc?

It isn't their fault. They are "sheeple"; products of a social system that
breeds citizens who do not think for themselves and are easy to manage.
http://www.massmind.org/techref/other/schoolpurpose.htm

> Anyhow. I do wish all the poor souls lots and lots of luck
> and hope that this is an eye opener for others.

The fact of the matter is that the death toll is a drop in the bucket when
you compare it to other things.
- Coming up on 2000 of our soldiers dead in Iraq with no results to show for
it in terms of gas prices OR WMDs OR any improvement in living conditions
for Iraqis
- 3,000 dead on 9/11. National hysteria against Islamic peoples. Loss of
privacy via the "Patriot" Act.
- Better than 60,000 dead on the roads in auto accidents every single year.
Auto and Oil companies post record earnings.


And, please note, that although I certainly have a political opinion on this
subject, and the choices of the facts I reported may be biased by that but
nothing I said here was unsubstantiated. I repeated ONLY solid, verifiable,
hard, cold, facts. If you have a different opinion, feel free to state
solid, verifiable, hard, cold, facts that support your position.

But stay away from the political OPINIONs.

---
James Newton: PICList webmaster/Admin
jamesnewtonspamspam_OUTpiclist.com  1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com


2005\09\02@165906 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> Actually, the Welsh 'discovered' America before the Spanish. ;-)
>
> -marc

I think you mean, by the Irish - by a Kerryman.
In about 500 AD :-)

Google "Saint Brendan".
eg        http://www.castletown.com/brendan.htm

Seems an unlikely tale at first glance BUT there is much detail in the
stories which would be hard to be there by fabrication alone.

Also, FWIW, Englishmen are intermingled Normans, and Normans are
intermingled Vikings. Welsh and Irish are also by now very
intermingled but have Celt ancestry which is not Viking.


       RM


2005\09\02@180938 by Jinx

face picon face
> I'm pretty sure the INDIANS discovered it first, though it seems
> they didn't file paperwork with the Vatican and therefore got hosed

I saw a Discovery Channel doco about the Bering Strait land bridge
not so long ago. Several human populations came into America from
East Asia 10s of 1000s of years ago, as well as many African-style
animals now long-extinct in the US

As for NO, isn't that line between civility and feral awfully thin ?

I'm very surprised to have not seen air-drops. Surely supplies
could have been parachuted in, with personnel to protect and
distribute them ? Reminiscient of those dreadful food scramble
scenes in Black Hawk Down perhaps, but could hardly be any
worse than what's happening now



2005\09\02@181657 by R. I. Nelson

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part 1 1042 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed (decoded 7bit)

I would like to offer an explanation for some of the delay of the
federal government acting in this disaster. First off the National guard
is state controlled and can be activated by the governor.  The Army,
Navy, Marines, Air Force and Coast Guard are Federal under direction of
the President.  The President CANNOT send Federal troops into a state
unless the governor ASKS for help.  From What I heard The governor of  
Louisiana did not Officially ask for help until WEDS.  And then  Think
of the logistics of all this.  Who controls what.  National guard form 3
different states army troops State Police City cops.  Man this is a
night mare.  Top it all off with some IDIOTS sniping at ambulances
trying to help sick people.  

It might be simple for the Governor to declare MARTIAL LAW.  Then the
the military takes control.  It is hard but makes things simple.

If any people want further explanations of this please contact me off
list and I will be happy to discuss it.


>  
>



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2005\09\02@201620 by Carey Fisher - NCS

face picon face
  > > >> Well, unless the French discovered America in the late 1200's it
  > seems
  > >
  > > Actually the Spanish discovered America... may be you that
  > was part of
  > the
  > > sarcasm, but I didn't get it that way...
  > >
  >
  > I'm pretty sure the INDIANS discovered it first, though it seems they
  > didn't file paperwork with the Vatican and therefore got hosed.
  >

No, the Mammoth Hunters discovered it when they crossed the
land/ice bridge from Siberia to the North American continent.
Then they moved down to the mid latitudes, learned to play
baseball and football and evolved into various species of Indians, to wit:

Aztecs (San Diego State)
Braves
  * Atlanta (baseball)
   * Alcorn State University (Lorman, Mississippi)
   * Bradley University (Peoria, Illinois)
   * Chowan College (Murfreesboro, North Carolina)
   * Goldey-Beacom College (Wilmington, Delaware)
   * Husson College (Bangor, Maine)
   * Ottawa University (Ottawa, Kansas)
   * University of West Georgia (Carrollton, Georgia)
   * University of North Carolina-Pembroke (Pembroke, North Carolina)
Chiefs (Kansas City)
Chieftains (Stonehill College),
Chippewas (Central Michigan University),
Choctaws (Mississippi College),
Golden State Warriors (basketball)
Indians
  * Cleveland (baseball)
   * Arkansas State University (Jonesboro, Arkansas)
   * Catawba College (Salisbury, North Carolina)
   * Haskell Indian Nations University (Lawrence, Kansas)
   * Indiana University of Pennsylvania (Indiana, Pennsylvania)
   * Martin Methodist College (Pulaski, Tennessee)
   * McMurry University (Abilene, Texas)
   * Midwestern State University (Wichita Falls, Texas)
   * Newberry College (Newberry, South Carolina)
   * University of Louisiana-Monroe (Monroe, Louisiana)
Mohawks (Massachusetts College of Liberal Arts)
Moundbuilders
   * Southwestern College (Winfield, Kansas)
   * Southwestern College of Christian Ministries
Redmen
   * Carthage College (Kenosha, Wisconsin)
   * Northeastern State University (Tahlequah, Oklahoma)
   * University of Rio Grande (Rio Grande, Ohio)
Redskins (Washington)
Savages (Southeastern Oklahoma State University)
Seminoles  (Florida State University)
Sioux  (University of North Dakota)
Tribe  (College of William & Mary)
Warriors
   * Appalachian Bible College (Bradley, West Virginia)
   * California State University-Stanislaus (Stanislaus, California)
   * Eastern Connecticut State University (Willimantic, Connecticut)
   * East Stroudsburg University (East Stroudsberg, Pennsylvania)
   * Hendrix College (Conway, Arkansas)
   * Indiana Institute of Technology (Fort Wayne, Indiana)
   * Lewis-Clark State College (Lewiston, Idaho)
   * Lycoming College (Williamsport, Pennsylvania)
   * Merrimack College (North Andover, Massachusetts)
   * Miami Christian University (Miami, Florida)
   * Southern Wesleyan University (Central, South Carolina)
   * Sterling College (Sterling, Kansas)
   * Trinity International University-South Florida Campus (Miami, Florida)
   * Union College (Lincoln, Nebraska)
   * University of Akron-Wayne College (Orrville, Ohio)
   * Waldorf College (Forest City, Iowa)
   * Wayne State University (Detroit, Michigan) (former nickname: Tartars)
   * Webber College (Babson Park, Florida)
   * Western Baptist College (Salem, Oregon)
   * Westmont College (Santa Barbara, California)
   * Winona State University (Minnesota)
   * Calvary Bible College (Kansas City, Missouri)
   * Life Bible College (San Dimas, California)
   * Midland Lutheran College (Fremont, Nebraska)
   * United Wesleyan College (Allentown, Pennsylvania)
   * Wisconsin Lutheran College (Milwaukee, Wisconsin)





2005\09\03@084127 by Gerhard Fiedler

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David Van Horn wrote:

> I'm pretty sure the INDIANS discovered it first, though it seems they
> didn't file paperwork with the Vatican and therefore got hosed.

That's probably the most succinct and still precise description of the
"process" :)

Gerhard

2005\09\03@093025 by Mauricio Jancic

flavicon
face
Historically, it's a known fact that the Spanish discovered America's
continent on 1492.

As it is wrote on http://www.britannica.com:

"The first European to land in America was Leif Ericson, a Viking seaman
from Greenland (see Ericson). The ancient sagas give different accounts of
this voyage made in the year 1000. Leif landed on a forested shore, which he
called Vinland. He did not realize he had found a new continent, and Europe
heard nothing of his discovery.

In 1963 archaeologists uncovered the remains of a Viking."

SO, he didn't actually "discover" anything.
The colonization began with the Europeans (Spanish and Portuguese) after
Columbus arrival.

Here's another source for the Welsh version
http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/Wales-History/DiscoveryofAmerica.htm

Although it looks like a true I should insist on the fact that all Europe
knew of America before Columbus, hence, he remains as the true discoverer.


Mauricio Jancic
Janso Desarrollos - Microchip Consultants Program Member
KILLspaminfoKILLspamspamjanso.com.ar
http://www.janso.com.ar
(54) 11 - 4542 - 3519
{Original Message removed}

2005\09\03@104313 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
There are some facets of this not explored unless you have seen the New
Orleans
area. For years engineers have warned that continuing to build valuable
structures
on NO's  poor subsoil is foolhardy.  The problem is that its really not
possible to build
a reliable levee system in N.O. because the ground is too far below sea
level.

What happens is that water seeps under the levee and eventually washes
it out during
a huirricane. Even if you pushed the bottom of the levee to 20 meters
below sea level,
the soil still has NO strength.

But the reason this became a tragedy is because of the "cry wolf"
problem. Every time
a huirricane blew up, people were told to evacuate, and no gamage ever
resulted, so
people decided (naturally) that the warnings were bogus. This time, they
were not. The
agencies thought everyone was leaving, its that simple.

To rebuilt N.O. as it was is would be foolhardy. New Orleans needs to
revert back to the
river delta swamp it always was. Build a small replica of "New Orleans"
on suspended steel
piers to keep it a tourist attraction, and that be it.

--Bob

M. Adam Davis wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>>-

2005\09\03@194224 by olin piclist

face picon face
Mauricio Jancic wrote:
> Leif landed on a
> forested shore, which he called Vinland. He did not realize he had
> found a new continent, and Europe heard nothing of his discovery.
>
> In 1963 archaeologists uncovered the remains of a Viking."
>
> SO, he didn't actually "discover" anything.

Columbus didn't realize he had found a new continent either.  He thought he
had sailed to India, hence he referred to the natives as "Indians".  So the
only real difference is that Columbus' excursion became common knowledge by
many not directly related to the event.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\09\04@001515 by Marcel Duchamp

picon face
James Newton, Host wrote:
>>What happened to the thousands of troops that should be
>>delivering aid and such on the home-front in the us?
>
> Ahem... In case you haven't heard, they are overseas right now lowering our
> gasoline prices... You have noticed the reduction in gas prices right?
>

Just saw on AP news:
"President Bush has declared a 'War on Hurricanes'.  "I understand the
weather is bad.  That means we have an understanding about the weather.
  We will no longer be held hostage by the weather" Bush stated.
"Whatever it takes, we will win! We will break the wind"


2005\09\04@023937 by Chen Xiao Fan

face
flavicon
face
Normally I do not like to take part in [OT] discussions. Anyway,
this is just to show you some of the reports from official
Chinese Media.

There were two very strong typhoons in China recently as well.
The recent one passes my home town as well but luckily it did
not cause much damages. It did cause serious damages to other
provinces.

By the way, accoding to CNN, 300 troops with kin in Katrina zone
have been sent home from Iraq. However Bush orders more troops
(7000) to Gulf Coast.

National interests are above all! Of course different people
have different interpretation of so called "National Interests".

Anyway, this is a disaster and hopefully things will get better
as soon as possible. Whoever high high high above, please bless the
poor souls.

Regards,
Xiaofan

PS: Some news website links if you do not want to read only CNN
(CNN is fast though).
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/ Singapore
http://news.bbc.co.uk/ UK BBC
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/home/index.html China
http://www.scmp.com/ Hong Kong SAR, China
http://www.voanews.com/english/portal.cfm VOA, USA
http://www.cnn.com/ CNN, USA
http://www.npr.org/ National Public Radio, USA


---------------------------------------------------
www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/home/index.html
 
New Orleans left to the dead and dying
A once-vibrant city of 480,000 people overtaken days ago by floods, looting,
rape, was now an empty tomb.

President Hu's visit to the US postponed

China offers US$5 million to hurricane victims

----------------------------------------------------
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-09/03/content_474810.htm

Coastal China evacuates nearly 600,000 people as Typhoon
Talim approaches (AP)
Updated: 2005-09-01 15:33

Nearly 600,000 people have been evacuated as Typhoon Talim, packing winds of
up to 184 kilometers (114 miles) per hour, headed for southern
China on Thursday, the Associated Press cited Xinhua News Agency as
reported.
------------------------------------------------------------

www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/home/index.html
China offers US$5 million to hurricane victims
(Xinhua)
Updated: 2005-09-04 08:04

BEIJING., Sept. 3 (Xinhuanet) -- The Chinese government has decided to offer
disaster relief up to 5 million US dollars along with emergency supplies to
the people in the the United States victimized by Hurricane Katrina, a
Foreign Ministry spokesman said here Saturday.

The Chinese government will also send rescue workers to help inmedical
treatment and epidemic prevention in the disaster-stricken areas, if needed,
said spokesman Qin Gang.

China will keep close contacts with the United States on the disaster relief
work and join the international community in assisting the local people
restoring their homeland, the spokesman said.

Hurricane Katrina hit the southern part of the United States on Aug. 29,
causing heavy casualties and damages.

On Aug. 31, Chinese President Hu Jintao a telegram to US President George W.
Bush, expressing sympathy and condolences to President Bush, the US
government and people for their suffering caused by Hurricane Katrina, on
behalf of the Chinese government and people.


{Original Message removed}

2005\09\04@044813 by Russell McMahon

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>> What happened to the thousands of troops that should be
>> delivering aid and such on the home-front in the us?

> Ahem... In case you haven't heard, they are overseas right now
> lowering our
> gasoline prices... You have noticed the reduction in gas prices
> right?
>
> And before anyone has the BALLS to say something about
> "humanitarian" this
> or WMD's that, read this page:
> http://www.massmind.org/other/war4oil That is SOLID (but very
> under-reported) proof that oil is was and will be the only reason
> for the US
> invasion of Iraq.

List owner or no, friend (I think :-) ) or not, I'd suggest a bit more
discernment on what one calls be a bit more discerning about what I'd
call "solid, verifiable, cold hard facts...".  Google has 36 hits on /
"the appearance of a line of light" kuwait/  so it's still out there.
Given that this was 2002 and given the hungriness of SOME news
oprganisations to make headlines, no matter how bad the men in black
wish to lean on them, and given the ease with which either a road or a
pipeline could be checked out, and given the amazingly consistent
nature of the line on the photo, and given the *LARGE* splodge of
light which the new line approaches and then closely passes in these
photos, and ...

THEN

I'd tend to check it out personally in more detail before I relied on
a Popular Mechanics article for a cornerstone document in my proof.

So:

Kuwait is not very large. That whole line of light is perhaps 50 miles
long.     It has apparently "extended" in the photos by maybe 30+
miles in 22 days, or about 1.5 miles/day. It's also superbly well lit.
The apparent width of the trace when compared to built up areas
suggests more than construction lights.

Hey, lets look at a map!  eg

       http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/kuwait_rel96.jpg

OK! Starts near or at Al Jahrah. One of very few major centres shown
on this scale of map.
Pasees slightly to left of Ar Raw    datayn, another centre shown on
this map. And these two centres are joined by not just a road but an
"expressway". It's THE major route from Kuwait city to the Iraqi
border and, possibly more importantly here, major Kuwaiti oilfields at
Raudhatain (oilfield not shown by name on map above.)

Another map gives an essentially equivalent picture

       http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/kuwait.gif

The oil field can be seen here

   http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/al_basrah_iraq_80.jpg

Notice on all the maps the spur road to the right to the concentration
of lights, which matches what is seen on the photo.

Notice also another line of light extending from the centre to the
lower left. On the early photo it doesn't extend all the weay to the
border but on the second it does. This is also an expressway extending
to Salemy, just short of the Saudi Arabian border, where it becomes a
normal road and enters Saudi Arabia.

One reasonable explanation of the two photos is that there was more
cloud cover in the later one.

BUT the key thing here is that IF this really was a Popular Mechanics
article, and there is reason to doubt this, then they were 'had' by
their "retired Air Force meteorological officer", they didn't bother
to even look at a map and see that they were looking at one of the
biggest roads in Kuwait, that it was not at all in an isolated area
and that it joined major cities and oil centres. I think it's more
likely that someone decided to create a hoax page to either make their
point or to make people look silly and that others have picked it up
and used it undiscerningly.

_____________________

None of the above makes any comment at all on the suggestion that the
US is in Iraq because of their oil. I can't imagine that anyone of any
integrity or intelligence would claim that this isn't a factor, if we
disqualify politicians, oil company executives, tobacco industry
executives and anyone with a vested interest from consdierationm. [
:-) ]. BUT I'd also be very sad if anyone believed it was the only
significant factor.



>> on wondering why George W Bush doesn't push to increase aid
>> and rescue efforts.

I heard on NZ TV yesterday that an interim figure of $US10.5 billion
has been allocated for aid. Sounds like a good start.

Starting doing things sooner and more capably would certainly have
been desirable. One way to achieve this if this sort of thing ever
happens again is to pick up the telephone and call, wait for it, ta
da, Oxfam. I don't know how they do it, but after the Tsunami struck
they were flying in aid in volume days to weeks ahead of other
organisations (icnluding Red Cross and the UN). I suspect they could
provide some useful guidance on how to hit the ground running.

> Our technology may well be more advanced, but the Dutch are smart
> enough to
> actually FUND the construction of water management projects.

Google /"delta project"  netherlands /   or deltawerken, to see the
scale at which the Dutch have dealt with water - arguably largest
engineering project on earth in its day.

> The fact of the matter is that the death toll is a drop in the
> bucket when
> you compare it to other things.
> - Coming up on 2000 of our soldiers dead in Iraq with no results to
> show for
> it in terms of gas prices

You can't shoot the straw man that you have set up ;-).
If the admin DID comment on correlations twixt oil prices and Iraq,
what would you say  ;-).
And who can say with any certainty( apart from people who are
immovably certain of their correctness) what the Iraq situation has
done to oil prices. I'm no politician but I would have thought that
any Iraqi involvement aimed at oil supply would have been related to
long term security of supply and not short term prices.

> OR WMDs

Nolo contendere ;-)

> OR any improvement in living conditions for Iraqis

Rubbish.

Quality of life, which encompasses but is far from limited to, living
conditions, is vastly superior for the majority of Iraqis since the
demise of S.H., as measured by the behaviour and opinions of the
majority of Iraqis. Those who were most happy with how things were
going in SH days were the Sunni minority who dictated (literally) what
the large majority of their countrymen should do. They are now largely
less than fully happy with how things are going - a reasonably good
sign that things are going better than they were. A moments reflection
on who the strife in Iraq is being maintained by suggests that
freedom, as masured in terms understandable to the US founding
fathers, has greatly increased. If you don't care to factor freedom
into quality of life you get an easier measure, but one which is of
little practical use.

Test: In the US, would you rather

- EITHER live in relative peace under a violent murderous dictator and
a (figuratively) jack-booted minority, knowing that members of your
family and friends may be arbitrarily vanished at any moment with no
good cause and no redress, but that you are sage enough if you lick
the rulers boots and don't complain
- OR live in a situation akin to revolutionary US where you are at war
with the usurping but well supported minority, fighting in the cause
of freedom and the right to self determination.

Clue:    Read the verses of the US national anthem which are not
usually sung. Note what the footprints are washed out with.

Freedom isn't free.

The US's motives in Iraq may well be far from pure. Few would doubt
it. But the potential gains for the people are vast. Oil and WMD
notwithstanding, the loss of 2000 odd US lives (and climbing) is a
badge of honor that may be worn with sad pride if it results in
something significantly closer to true freedom for an oppressed
people.

> - 3,000 dead on 9/11.

Straw man walking, again.
The claim by opponents is that 911 was totally unrelated to Iraq. You
can't claim thsi AND count the 911 deaths as a cost of Iraq.

> National hysteria against Islamic peoples.
> Loss of privacy via the "Patriot" Act.

Again: 911 was the *catalyst* for this. And 911 does not relate to
Iraq, remember.

If people in the US admin or others choose to promote such things it
is not basically a fault of the catalyst but people using a pretext to
promote an agenda. That gets into political areas in which i am
woefully versed, don't wish to comment, and which are specifically
here proscribed.

At the risk of crossing a poorly defined line, and trying to stick
rigorously to "solid, verifiable, hard, cold, facts", it's worth
considering the "suggestion" that the Islamic 'extremists' who have
taken the battle to the west are following the formal dictats of true
Islam, as codified in the Quran. While it may very well be true that
the vast majority of Muslims seek to dwell peacefully and non
violently with other peoples, this is not the behaviour that a strict
Muslim would be expected to observe in the long term. While "we the
people" in Islam may well be happy to depart from the Quran's
instructions in this area, it is not something that diligent Islamic
leaders can easily shun. Reservations about the long term intentions
and methodology of Islam is only due diligence for any non-Islamic
nation.

I'd be genuinely happy for any Muslim to point out that I was wrong
based on the prepondrance of what the Quran says. ie I'm not
questioning what Muslims as a whole may wish to do, but saying that
the core written code instructs conquest.

> - Better than 60,000 dead on the roads in auto accidents every
> single year.

And over 1,000,000 aborted 'fetuses' in the US each year.

> Auto and Oil companies post record earnings.

Nolo contendere  :-)

> And, please note, that although I certainly have a political opinion
> on this
> subject, and the choices of the facts I reported may be biased by
> that...

Anyone who can see the above as apolitical MUST be an engineer with
his eye shut :-). Welcome to the club.

> But stay away from the political OPINIONs.

Oh, absolutely :-).
FWIW I have about no US political opinions and precious few in NZ.
Apart from noting that the NZ Labour party (closest thing to Democrats
but quite different) is immoral and that the NZ  National Party
(closest thing to Republicans but quite different) is amoral, and that
all the other 15 or so parties are dangerous to vote for, I have
little of value to say politically.



       Russell McMahon

2005\09\04@070233 by Howard Winter

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James,

On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 13:38:47 -0700, James Newton, Host wrote:

> > What happened to the thousands of troops that should be
> > delivering aid and such on the home-front in the us?
>
> Ahem... In case you haven't heard, they are overseas right now lowering our
> gasoline prices... You have noticed the reduction in gas prices right?

I find it rather ironic that Katrina has devastated the oil-production facilities, that may arguably have been
the cause of the weather that spawned it!


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\09\04@071249 by Howard Winter

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Jinx,

On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 10:09:37 +1200, Jinx wrote:

>...<
> I'm very surprised to have not seen air-drops. Surely supplies
> could have been parachuted in, with personnel to protect and
> distribute them ? Reminiscient of those dreadful food scramble
> scenes in Black Hawk Down perhaps, but could hardly be any
> worse than what's happening now.

I'm really surprised that I haven't seen any *boats* in the television coverage - when Carlisle (northern town
in England) had a disasterous flood in January of this year, there were people going about in small boats,
rescuing people and so on.  I haven't seen a single rowing boat (OK, maybe they were all destroyed) or
inflatable at all.  I'm sure the USNavy and the Coastguard has Zodiacs and the like, and with the place still
largely flooded that would seem to be the easiest way to get about, distributing food and water and collecting
trapped people.  I know they USMarines have hovercraft - why aren't they in evidence?




Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\09\04@071616 by Howard Winter

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On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 17:16:48 -0500, R. I. Nelson wrote:

> I would like to offer an explanation for some of the delay of the
> federal government acting in this disaster. First off the National guard
> is state controlled and can be activated by the governor.  The Army,
> Navy, Marines, Air Force and Coast Guard are Federal under direction of
> the President.  The President CANNOT send Federal troops into a state
> unless the governor ASKS for help.  From What I heard The governor of  
> Louisiana did not Officially ask for help until WEDS.  And then  Think
> of the logistics of all this.  Who controls what.  National guard form 3
> different states army troops State Police City cops.  Man this is a
> night mare.  Top it all off with some IDIOTS sniping at ambulances
> trying to help sick people.  

You're saying that people are suffering and dying because of beaureaucracy???

Isn't that precisely what FEMA is there for, to cut across all that?

Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\09\04@075958 by Jinx

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> > I'm very surprised to have not seen air-drops. Surely supplies
>
> I'm really surprised that I haven't seen any *boats*

That's right - I notice that reporters are picking people up in their
boats. You'd think a flooded area like that would be very navigable.
Being a coastal and generally watery region there must be any
number of large and small recreational/utility/military water craft.
And as you say, hovercraft could get to places boats couldn't. I
find the apparent unprepared headless chicken bureaucracy thing
inexplicable and very sad

2005\09\04@081422 by R. I. Nelson

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Howard Winter wrote:

>Jinx,
>
>On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 10:09:37 +1200, Jinx wrote:
>
>  
>
>>...<
>>I'm very surprised to have not seen air-drops. Surely supplies
>>could have been parachuted in, with personnel to protect and
>>distribute them ? Reminiscient of those dreadful food scramble
>>scenes in Black Hawk Down perhaps, but could hardly be any
>>worse than what's happening now.
>>    
>>
>
>I'm really surprised that I haven't seen any *boats* in the television coverage - when Carlisle (northern town
>in England) had a disasterous flood in January of this year, there were people going about in small boats,
>rescuing people and so on.  I haven't seen a single rowing boat (OK, maybe they were all destroyed) or
>inflatable at all.  I'm sure the USNavy and the Coastguard has Zodiacs and the like,
>
You have to remember there are all types of building wreckage submerged
in these flood waters.  You send rescue people in there in an inflatable
boat you may have to rescue them when they run into
something that punctures the boat.

> and with the place still
>largely flooded that would seem to be the easiest way to get about, distributing food and water and collecting
>trapped people.  I know they USMarines have hovercraft - why aren't they in evidence?
>  
>
Again all the wreckage debris.  The hover craft floats on a cushion of
air that blows out around the bottom of the "skirt" at a high velocity.  
They are not good for this type of use.

If you notice the helicopters  are sometimes very high in the air when
the lower someone or lan a distance away, the reason is the "prop wash"
that blows down.

{Quote hidden}


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2005\09\04@081935 by John Ferrell

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It could have been worse.
The larger the organization, the slower to get into action. Fortunately, we
don't have a lot of experience with this sort of thing.

FEMA is meeting a lot of resistance from the local governments who don't
want their local empires to lose any control.

Our country continues to evolve and the process is a lot less than perfect.
In many instances, we will repeat past mistakes.

The relationship between State and Federal government got in the way this
time but it is still essential to our chosen way of life.

John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2005\09\04@084209 by olin piclist

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Howard Winter wrote:
> LOL!  Although they got as far as Greenland, I'm not sure there's
> evidence they got the the American mainland.

There is quite good evidence.  I'm not up on the latest, but it was my
understanding that most archeologists now agree that the remains found at
L'Anse aux Meadows in Newfoundland were a Viking settlement, possibly the
referred to as Vinland or Vinlandia by Lief Erickson.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\09\04@084321 by John Nall

picon face
Howard Winter wrote:



>>You're saying that people are suffering and dying because of beaureaucracy???
>  
>
Well, uh . . . yeah.  And because they are in the wrong socioeconomic
class.  Just a fact.  Not a nice idea, and not one that anyone will ever
admit, but true.  Everyone knew doggoned well that New Orleans was full
of poor, black people who could not possibly evacuate on their own.  (I
was hoping to stay out of this, but it appears to be impossible).  
Anyone not from this area (which is where I live, although far enough to
the east not to have been affected) has absolutely no earthly idea of
how much distance there is between the really poor class and those of us
who are better off.  



2005\09\04@084718 by R. I. Nelson

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Howard Winter wrote:

{Quote hidden}

FEMA is Federal Emergency Management Agency.

One thing that I am disappointed in with our NEWS REPORTER agencys is
they try to glorify and magnify the mistakes or errors and quickly pass
over or lightly cover the good that is done.

If you watch the news interviews closely the people they interview the
longest are the ones with the most negative to say. and they repeat them
over and over.  The ones that are OK with things the reporters are short
and move on to something else and never re show those interviews.

The job of the news reporter is to report both sides  fairly and not
give a "SLANTED" view.

>Howard Winter
>St.Albans, England
>
>
>  
>



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2005\09\04@091218 by Jinx

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> FEMA is meeting a lot of resistance from the local governments
> who don't want their local empires to lose any control

New Orleans mayor Ray Nagin was pretty vocal about what he
wanted to be done. "Get off your asses" I think he said. Not the
usual diplomatic sound bite you get from an official


2005\09\04@091642 by John Ferrell

face picon face
There are other cultures that predate all of these.

The "mound builders" in Ohio are one that I am a little familiar with. There
are lots of artifacts in the area, but not a lot of evidence where they
originated or what became of them. The artifacts in their burial mounds
suggest that they either traveled long distances or traded with people who
did.

John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2005\09\04@101100 by John Nall

picon face
R. I. Nelson wrote:

> I would like to offer an explanation for some of the delay of the
> federal government acting in this disaster.  ..  From What I heard The
> governor of  Louisiana did not Officially ask for help until WEDS.


And hey, even if she did ask for any help, I'll just bet that she forgot
to preface each sentence with "Simon sez."  Yep, that certainly lets the
feds off the hook, both legally and morally, doesn't it?

2005\09\04@171315 by R. I. Nelson

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Olin Lathrop wrote:

>Howard Winter wrote:
>  
>
>>LOL!  Although they got as far as Greenland, I'm not sure there's
>>evidence they got the the American mainland.
>>    
>>
>
>There is quite good evidence.  I'm not up on the latest, but it was my
>understanding that most archeologists now agree that the remains found at
>L'Anse aux Meadows in Newfoundland were a Viking settlement, possibly the
>referred to as Vinland or Vinlandia by Lief Erickson.
>
>
>*****************************************************************
>Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
>(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com
>  
>
I had relatives in Duluth, Minnesota at the far western end of lake
superior.  They claimed to found evidence of the Vikings on Lake superior.

Not 100 % sure of that though.  But seem to remember from my youth (50
Years ago) seeing a replica of a viking ship and a museum of some type.



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2005\09\04@174347 by R. I. Nelson

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Jinx wrote:

>>FEMA is meeting a lot of resistance from the local governments
>>who don't want their local empires to lose any control
>>    
>>
>
>New Orleans mayor Ray Nagin was pretty vocal about what he
>wanted to be done. "Get off your asses" I think he said. Not the
>usual diplomatic sound bite you get from an official
>
>  
>
But to my knowledge the GOVERNOR of the state has to Ask or OK federal
help.  A fiend of mine in central Louisiana said  what he heard was the
governor wanted all the federal assistance they could get but they
wanted the state to control everything.  But it does not work that way.  
If FEMA comes in they control all of their resource and and the federal
troops are under federal control..  He claims that had a lot to do with
the delays and there were a lot of federal resources ready to go.  

Look at it this way The state was stupid enough to allow a large city
like New Orleans to be built in a bowl as much as 20 feet below the
normal water level of one of the largest rivers in North America.  And
on the North side is a lake that looks to be 10 time as big as the city
with the normal water level also that high.

They have been saying for who knows how many years that when the big
hurricane hits this was Going to happen.  Well it finally happened.  I
say if any one is to blame it is the STATE OF LOUISIANA Government for
allowing it to get to this point and they are TOTALLY at fault for not
being prepared to handle it.



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2005\09\04@185704 by Jinx

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Are there any other "accidents waiting to happen" as
big as New Orleans in the US ?

2005\09\04@191208 by John Nall

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Jinx wrote:

>Are there any other "accidents waiting to happen" as
>big as New Orleans in the US ?
>  
>
Yup.  California. Earthquake fault. (Has a name, but I forget it.  
Andreas??)  Not a matter of "if" but only a matter of "when" according
to the experts.

John

2005\09\04@191740 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Sep 4, 2005, at 3:57 PM, Jinx wrote:

> Are there any other "accidents waiting to happen" as
> big as New Orleans in the US ?
>
Do you want to count possible earthquake faults ?  Lots of California
is "prepared" for earthquakes up to a certain magnitude (maybe), but
there's that fault in the mid-west that everyone just hopes will remain
idle.

There are assorted volcanos.  Mt Rainier I hear is widely worried about,
should it have the sort of catastrophic eruption that is possible.
Mt St Helens is currently active.  Hawaii has (is?) active volcanos.

There are assorted areas hit by moderate floods, tornados, and lesser
hurricanes rather frequently.  there could be an uncommonly large one
of any of those, I suppose.

All of which would be pretty hard-pressed to equal the death toll
of an average year of traffic accidents. :-(

A big advantage of the US is that it's BIG.  Even a major disaster
in a major population center leaves an incredible amount of the
country left to assist.  Beaurocratic snafus preventing aid from
reaching where it is needed is NOTHING compared to having your whole
country's infrastructure blasted (which I gather happened in the case
of some of the tsunami victims earlier this year.) (and of course,
that makes it all the more tragic, when the resources to help were
available but unable to help for silly reasons.  Sigh.)

BillW

2005\09\04@193237 by Jinx

face picon face
> Do you want to count possible earthquake faults ?

If yes, then you could probably add in the Pacific NW (is
that the Cascades Fault ?), predicted Seattle may slip into
the sea one day

Another event that's "overdue". I wonder if that's just a beat-up
word, seems every catastrophe likely, from meteor to Hawaiian
landslide, is "overdue"

Rangitoto Island in Auckland's harbour is also "overdue"

2005\09\04@193845 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 07:11 PM 9/4/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>Jinx wrote:
>
>>Are there any other "accidents waiting to happen" as
>>big as New Orleans in the US ?
>>
>Yup.  California. Earthquake fault. (Has a name, but I forget it.
>Andreas??)  Not a matter of "if" but only a matter of "when" according to
>the experts.
>
>John

I read recently that FEMA stated in early 2001 ** that there were three
likely, yet major, catastrophes that could happen in the US:

1.      Terrorist attack on NYC
2.      Hurricane hitting New Orleans
3.      Massive earthquake in San Francisco

So far we're batting .666 (so to speak).


** http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/editorial/outlook/3335758

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
EraseMEspeffspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
->> Inexpensive test equipment & parts http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZspeff


2005\09\04@195721 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 11:32 AM 9/5/2005 +1200, you wrote:
> > Do you want to count possible earthquake faults ?
>
>If yes, then you could probably add in the Pacific NW (is
>that the Cascades Fault ?), predicted Seattle may slip into
>the sea one day
>
>Another event that's "overdue". I wonder if that's just a beat-up
>word, seems every catastrophe likely, from meteor to Hawaiian
>landslide, is "overdue"
>
>Rangitoto Island in Auckland's harbour is also "overdue"

A major earthquake whacking Tokyo is well overdue. They've generally
hit every 70 years, and the most recent one was in 1923. It will probably
kill many thousands and there could be a lot of fires from the heating gas
that's used throughout the city.

And (because of investments) if it were to happen tomorrow, my income
would probably double or triple this year. 8-(

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
RemoveMEspeffEraseMEspamEraseMEinterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
->> Inexpensive test equipment & parts http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZspeff


2005\09\04@204941 by Jinx

face picon face
> I read recently that FEMA stated in early 2001 ** that there were three
> likely, yet major, catastrophes that could happen in the US:

> ** http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/editorial/outlook/3335758

You'd think it had been written yesterday, it's so accurate

I heard a talkback caller mention the Montreal Police strike

"8:00 A.M. on October 17, 1969, _ Montreal police went on strike.
By 11:20 A.M. the first bank was robbed. By noon most downtown
stores had closed because of looting. Within a few more hours,
taxi drivers burned down the garage of a limousine service that
had competed with them for airport customers, a rooftop sniper
killed a provincial police officer, rioters broke into several hotels
and restaurants, and a doctor slew a burglar in his suburban home.
By the end of the day, six banks had been robbed, a hundred
shops had been looted, twelve fires had been set, forty carloads
of storefront glass had been broken, and three million dollars in
property damage had been inflicted, before city authorities had
to call in the army and, of course, the Mounties to restore order"

Doesn't take much or long for order to break down. With little
or no chance of being brought to account for crimes, small wonder
it happened in New Orleans too

2005\09\04@210140 by Carey Fisher - NCS

face picon face
I wonder if their planning took into account that nearly all the "first
responders" would be among the victims?

Carey Fisher

  > {Original Message removed}

2005\09\04@210347 by David Van Horn

picon face


Almost buried in the news this week, is major seismic swarms in the
salton sea area, and all up and down the san andreas.



2005\09\04@211305 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> Are there any other "accidents waiting to happen" as
> big as New Orleans in the US ?

Bigness can be measured in $ or loss of life or by other measures.
In terms of loss of life there are MANY potentially greater risks.

Space rock anytime.
Anything up to loss of all life.
Death of thousands to millions entirely possible albeit unlikely.
cf eg meteor crater, Arizona (?10,000? years ago) & Tunguska (~100
years ago) .
Place them in a city and ...

Much of US East coast is Tsunami prone with known potential sources.
Thousands to 100,000s. A similar or greater tectonic plate shift to
the recent one is possible on ANY plate edge anywhere any time. Place
one near a more densely populated area and it's all on.

Good volcano possible in many plate-edge locations. None liable to be
so widespread as Katrina but loss of life could easily be vastly
greater.
Our "Mt Taupo" (20,000 years ago, biggest on earth to date since then)
if it happened elsewhere could kill millions.
Rangitoto Auckland is 60% of all Auckland's volcano. Place the next
one (overdue) in residential Auckland and you'd kill dozens to
hundreds with the best warning around.  A new Taupo anywhere would do
far worse. Pryroclastic ash wave was 1 kilometre (!) tall when it
crossed Mt Tongariro. Surf that!

Worst case earthquake California. Don't ask.

Dirty nuke in a major city not near you.
Some of the world's larger metropolitan areas contain around 20
million people each.

****BUT**** by far the most likely and most devastating of all is a
genetic engineering accident. All of human life on earth could quite
feasibly be destroyed by accident (or on purpose). Any subset of this
is possible. This is not conspiracy theory hype but a demonstrably
feasible possibility.



       Russell McMahon









2005\09\04@212631 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 08:06 PM 9/4/2005 -0500, you wrote:


>Almost buried in the news this week, is major seismic swarms in the
>salton sea area, and all up and down the san andreas.

Interesting-- this article:
www.pe.com/breakingnews/local/stories/PE_News_Local_C_quakes02.18685021.html
(registration required, bugmenot works)

... mentions at the end of the article that CalEnergy is sucking hot water
from a series of mile-deep wells in the area to get energy for electricity.

I sure hope they did the environmental assessment thoroughly on that one.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
RemoveMEspeffspam_OUTspamKILLspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
->> Inexpensive test equipment & parts http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZspeff


2005\09\04@214633 by Jinx

face picon face
> ****BUT**** by far the most likely and most devastating of all is
> a genetic engineering accident. All of human life on earth could quite
> feasibly be destroyed by accident (or on purpose). Any subset of
> this is possible. This is not conspiracy theory hype but a demonstrably
> feasible possibility

This hardly made the new -

GM animals contaminate land

3/09/2005 14:07:02

Tests have revealed genetically modified cows and sheep are
contaminating the land. Experimental animals have been grazing
near Hamilton, and latest tests show signs of their presence has
made its way into bugs in the soil, something scientists had
thought was almost impossible.

GE Free New Zealand spokesman Jon Carapiet says there is
now evidence of infected soil, and the transfer is not just taking
place in the offal pits where animals are disposed of. He says
positive tests have been taken from fields surrounding and away
from the pits, which indicates accidental transfer of the materials

2005\09\05@044056 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Russell et al,

On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 13:12:09 +1200, Russell McMahon wrote:

> > Are there any other "accidents waiting to happen" as
> > big as New Orleans in the US ?

Nobody has mentioned the Yellowstone Park caldera - if that erupts, we're talking Extinction Level Event!

I have a map of London with the Tunguska meteor devastation trail superimposed on it (I think I posted a link
to it here before but as it's relevant:  http://www.hibernaculum.org.uk/PicPics/Tunguska.jpg  ) - it covers
pretty much all of Greater London and if it happened here, now, the death toll would be over 10 million
instantly.



Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\09\05@044625 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Jinx,

On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 11:32:28 +1200, Jinx wrote:

> I wonder if that's just a beat-up word, seems every catastrophe likely, from meteor to Hawaiian
> landslide, is "overdue"

That's just scientists trying to apply statistics to an essentially chaotic situation, trying to give an
answer to a question that really is unknowable - on this scale nature very rarely keeps to any timetable that
we determine!

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\09\05@051045 by Electron

flavicon
face
At 21.23 2005.09.02 +0100, you wrote:
>Wouter,
>
>On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 21:29:26 +0200, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
>
>> > Actually the Spanish discovered America... may be you that
>> > was part of the
>> > sarcasm, but I didn't get it that way...
>>
>> I never knew the vikings were spanish!
>
>LOL!  Although they got as far as Greenland, I'm not sure there's evidence
>they got the the American mainland.  
>John Cabot is reckoned to be the first to do that, certainly before Columbus.

Wasn't it Hanno of Cadiz?


>> And wasn't that Columbus guy an Italian? (not that Italy existed at that
>> time.)
>
>Well there is some argument as to whether he was from Genoa (where he was
>born) or Portugal, where he moved later.

In Italy he's considered more Italian than the Pizza. :D



2005\09\05@052118 by Jinx

face picon face
> Nobody has mentioned the Yellowstone Park caldera - if
> that erupts, we're talking Extinction Level Event !

Oh yeah, that's right. I saw a program about that last year (tut,
me and my documentaries). Very large area, and wouldn't be
the first time it'd gone whoooomph !!

http://www.yellowstonenationalpark.com/calderas.htm

No mention of Yogi ;-(

2005\09\05@054851 by Electron

flavicon
face
At 21.11 2005.09.03 -0700, you wrote:
>James Newton, Host wrote:
>>>What happened to the thousands of troops that should be delivering aid and such on the home-front in the us?
>>Ahem... In case you haven't heard, they are overseas right now lowering our
>>gasoline prices... You have noticed the reduction in gas prices right?
>
>Just saw on AP news:
>"President Bush has declared a 'War on Hurricanes'.  "I understand the weather is bad.  That means we have an understanding about the weather.   We will no longer be held hostage by the weather" Bush stated. "Whatever it takes, we will win! We will break the wind"

Now beware of preemptive wars against climate. For example, signing the Kyoto Protocol? I'm afraid it won't happen anyway..


2005\09\05@062229 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> Another event that's "overdue". I wonder if that's just a beat-up
> word, seems every catastrophe likely, from meteor to Hawaiian
> landslide, is "overdue"

> Rangitoto Island in Auckland's harbour is also "overdue"

Overdue can mean various things, some more likely to indicate
probability of future occurrence than others.

If you throw an unbiased coin eight times and get 8 heads you could
say that a tail is overdue. But the probability of getting one is
still unchanged. Many natural events have a certain statistical
probability of occurrence based on relevant factors BUT the
probability of occurrence is largely or totally unaffected by the
recent past history. An example MIGHT be the 50 year storm, or flood
or city fire. While statistically on average the 50 year event occurs
about every 50 years (duh) it could as easily happen two years in a
row. And may not happen in 100 years. A 50 year flood MAY be affected
by situation, erosion patterns, lakes damming etc, in which case the
future probability may be affected by such things. BUT the rainfall
cycle is probably not grossly affected year to year by recent years.
This is not totally true as the various "oscillations" can have cycles
lasting years or even decades, but you get the idea.

But events like earthquakes which may depend on tectonic plate
movement, may have an increasing probability of occurrence with time
as energy is built up by the plates being trapped and movement
prevented. Volcanic events which occur over hotspots, rather than at
plate edges (as most do) may exhibit a degree of time dependency. I'm
saying that not from an intimate knowledge of volcanology but because
the Auckland field, which is over a hot spot, does show time
dependency. I'm not too sure about Hawaii (another hot spot) BUT the
spacing of the chain of Hawaiian islands, produced as the plate moves,
gives some indication that this holds there too.

In the case of Auckland, it is not Rangitoto Island (volcano) that is
overdue but some new volcano somewhere else. Geologists tell us that
the Auckland field has been producing volcanoes of increasing size and
with increasing frequency. Based on past history we should not be
surprised if a REALLY big one popped up at any time. Rangitoto Island
is about 3 miles offshore in the harbour mouth. It's output was about
60% of the total Auckland field. ie 1.5 times as large as all the many
Auckland volcanoes before it. If the same thing happened 'next time"
we'd get one 2.5+ times as big as Rangitoto. People are suggesting St
Heliers but I'm cheering for Mt Remuera :-). (For non NZers - Remuera
is Auckland's most exclusive old-money suburb.


       RM



2005\09\05@094818 by John Ferrell

face picon face
The New Madrid fault is a definate maybe.
http://www.hsv.com/genlintr/newmadrd/

John Ferrell    
http://DixieNC.US

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jinx" <RemoveMEjoecolquittTakeThisOuTspamspamclear.net.nz>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <EraseMEpiclistspamspamspamBeGonemit.edu>
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] New Orleans


> Are there any other "accidents waiting to happen" as
> big as New Orleans in the US ?
>
> --

2005\09\05@095559 by John Ferrell

face picon face
That approach may appeal to the voters but costs in credibility with those
you scold.
John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2005\09\05@100448 by John Ferrell

face picon face
FEMA dumped a lot of money into our county earmarked for emergency services
and Homeland Security. It was entrusted it to the county to use it wisely.
It was all spent, but none filtered down to local Fire departments.

Politics are politics.

John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2005\09\05@114109 by Marcel Duchamp

picon face
Who's the third world now?

Go here for entire article:
http://wiredblogs.tripod.com/sterling/index.blog?entry_id=1212973


Indrani Bagchi has filed the following report in THE TIMES OF INDIA of
September 4, 2005:


Disaster is a great leveller. In a reversal of usual roles following the
devastation wrought by Hurricane Katrina, India has offered a
comprehensive assistance package to the US, the world's largest relief
donor.


The offer was formally communicated to the White House by Indian
ambassador to the US, Ronen Sen, on Saturday.


Tapping into its experience in combating large scale disasters, India's
three-pronged package attempts to export a combination of materials and
expertise.


Apart from a $5 million contribution to the American Red Cross, India
has offered to fly across Army medical teams to New Orleans. Army,
rather than civilian, relief teams are being offered keeping in view the
worsening law and order situation in the city.


India reckons water purification will be urgently required in a city
where contamination would be rife, causing water-borne diseases. As a
leading producer of bulk drugs, India is sending across a large
consignment of medicines.


After attending to numerous large-scale disasters, including last
December's tsunami and last month's Mumbai flooding, India now has
acquired considerable expertise in combating such large-scale disasters.


THE TELEGRAPH of September 5, 2005 carries more details (See below).

Cheers,

Ram Narayanan
US India Friendship
http://www.usindiafriendship.net

2005\09\05@134223 by John Ferrell

face picon face
Add Charleston SC...
http://scsn.seis.sc.edu/html/eqchas.html

John Ferrell    
http://DixieNC.US

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Ferrell" <RemoveMEjohnferrellKILLspamspamearthlink.net>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <piclistSTOPspamspamspam_OUTmit.edu>
Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] New Orleans


{Quote hidden}

>> --

2005\09\05@135103 by John Ferrell

face picon face
I doubt we will be able to take advantage of such offers, but at least this
one (mostly unaffected) citizen appreciates the offer.

The evacuation to safety continues. People are being evacuated to all over
the country where safe sanctuary can be provided. For example, emergency
housing & care is available in Greensboro NC when needed. We have been
advised that folks will be brought here that don't want to be here as well
as folks who will probably put down roots here.
John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2005\09\05@152656 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
The article clearly states that the lights could be a highway OR a pipeline.
It could also be both. The basis for the two are close; if you build a
pipeline, you might as well build a highway along side it. If you are
building a pipeline, and you want to explain the lights to someone, you
report it as a road and that is what gets put on the maps. Or, more likely,
if you want to build a pipeline, you build it along side an existing
highway.

If you want to be complete find a map of Kuwait and Iraq that shows where
the oil pipelines are... Hummm.. .that might be a little more difficult.

As to the existence of the article, there is a link to the Popular Mechanics
site from the link I provided which should remove all your doubt on that
point. Also, I have the original article right here with me. Says "Popular
Mechanics" right on the paper. <GRIN>

As to clouds covering only that part of the road and accounting for its
appearance over time; the original article speaks to that: "In Indialantic,
retired Air Force Col. Hyko Gayikian isn't sure what to make of Brandli's
speculation. He wonders if maybe Kuwait's lights were pre-existing features
that were temporarily shut down during the war. (Brandli says no, that he
checked other photos prior to the March war campaign and could find no such
lights.)"

Finally note that the map is from 1996. The roads were already there when
the weather satellite photos were taken. Why the progression of lights? Did
they just electrify the roadway with street lights all along? Or did they
build a pipeline along the existing road?

Even if it is just a highway, why build a highway to a country that you have
just been at war with? Notice on the map how the highway runs up the boarder
and then narrows down? And there is a "town" there? Abdali. This pattern is
repeated to the west with he major road to Salmey. During the first Gulf War
(remember, I was in that one) Sadam claimed that he invaded Kuwait because
they were drilling sideways over the boarder and stealing oil from Iraq.
Maybe this northern road/pipeline was a second sideways oil well.

That sequence makes the most sense to me. You first build the road to a
place where you have found a big reserve, then you drill and if you get a
good tap, you finish up by building a pipe.

Notice that in the May 3rd picture the western line stops well short of the
boarder. The new northern line goes all the way PAST the boarder.

Notice that only the "roads" that go to little "towns" right at the boarder
are "lit" None of the other roads are like that. Why are those special? Why
aren't the "roads" in Iraq lit up? Could it be that Iraq uses trains to
transport their oil to the port? Or has their oil fields near the river or
canal? They aren't funded as well as Kuwait by a long ways. They can't
afford big construction projects and the technology that pipelines require.

In any case, the point is that the timing is very coincidental. We invade
Iraq and just before we do, Kuwait builds "something" new from their port to
the major oil fields in Iraq.

It is all about the oil. Why is that hard to believe?

New Orleans is about the oil as well. And about shipping of other goods.
From:
www.stratfor.com/news/archive/050903-geopolitics_katrina.php
"By all accounts, the Louisiana Offshore Oil Port, which services
supertankers in the Gulf, is intact. Port Fourchon, which is the center of
extraction operations in the Gulf, has sustained damage but is recoverable.
The status of the oil platforms is unclear and it is not known what the
underwater systems look like, but on the surface, the damage - though not
trivial -- is manageable. "

"The oil fields, pipelines and ports required a skilled workforce in order
to operate. That workforce requires homes. "

"New Orleans is not optional for the United States' commercial
infrastructure. It is a terrible place for a city to be located, but exactly
the place where a city must exist. With that as a given, a city will return
there because the alternatives are too devastating."

---
James.



> {Original Message removed}

2005\09\05@160412 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Sep 5, 2005, at 3:22 AM, Russell McMahon wrote:

> Many natural events have a certain statistical probability of
> occurrence based on relevant factors BUT the probability of occurrence
> is largely or totally unaffected by the recent past history.

Actually, I don't think we have a very good understanding of where
assorted "natural" events fall on the statistical vs periodic vs
chaotic scale (thus some of the debate about global warming, for
instance...)

BillW

2005\09\05@161002 by Richard Prosser

picon face
Anywhere North of the Bombay Hills is OK with me!

RP

On 05/09/05, Russell McMahon <EraseMEapptechspamEraseMEparadise.net.nz> wrote:

"People are suggesting St Heliers but I'm cheering for Mt Remuera :-). ("

2005\09\05@161710 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Sep 5, 2005, at 7:05 AM, John Ferrell wrote:

> FEMA dumped a lot of money into our county earmarked for emergency
> services and Homeland Security...

This is one of the reasons that I find "homeland security" so scary.
You can sink an awful lot of money into "projects" of questionable
usefulness when there are better places to spend the money...

BillW

2005\09\05@173723 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
>> "People are suggesting St Heliers but I'm cheering for Mt Remuera
>> :-). ("

> Anywhere North of the Bombay Hills is OK with me!

Actually, Jinx is just past the edge of the hot spot's active area and
I'm about 5 miles beyond it. I expect my land value to rise
considerably if we ever get another volcano :-)



       RM


2005\09\05@175512 by Peter

picon face

On Mon, 5 Sep 2005, John Ferrell wrote:

> FEMA dumped a lot of money into our county earmarked for emergency services
> and Homeland Security. It was entrusted it to the county to use it wisely. It
> was all spent, but none filtered down to local Fire departments.
>
> Politics are politics.

And pork is pork ?

Peter

2005\09\05@205132 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Russell,

On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 09:27:29 +1200, Russell McMahon wrote:

> >> "People are suggesting St Heliers but I'm cheering for Mt Remuera
> >> :-). ("
>
> > Anywhere North of the Bombay Hills is OK with me!
>
> Actually, Jinx is just past the edge of the hot spot's active area and
> I'm about 5 miles beyond it. I expect my land value to rise
> considerably if we ever get another volcano :-)

Unless it's five miles from the hot spot, in which case your land may rise more than you wanted!  :-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\09\05@213611 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
>> >> "People are suggesting St Heliers but I'm cheering for Mt
>> >> Remuera
>> >> :-). ("
>>
>> > Anywhere North of the Bombay Hills is OK with me!
>>
>> Actually, Jinx is just past the edge of the hot spot's active area
>> and
>> I'm about 5 miles beyond it. I expect my land value to rise
>> considerably if we ever get another volcano :-)
>
> Unless it's five miles from the hot spot, in which case your land
> may rise more than you wanted!  :-)

The hot spot break through locus SEEMS very well defined. There have
been 49 Auckland volcanoes in about 100,000 years and the locations
where they do and don't happen SEEMS clear enough. The city is quite
literally built on an overlapping mat of volcanoes. Not many people
realise this :-).

While I live only about 4 miles line of sight from the closest volcano
the risk of losing my house in an eruption is only moderate. The
volcanoes are small by normal standards. Cones are typically hundreds
of  feet tall. Total field output for 49 eruptions is about 4 cubic km
or about the volume of the 1990 Mt St Helens eruption. However, 60% of
that (about 2.5 cubic km) happened arrived with the last eruption
(Rangitoto) about ?600-800? years ago. The field is expected to have a
lifetime of about 1 million years, so "you aint seen nothing yet".

100,000/49 = about 200 years between eruptions on average. They say
they are getting bigger and more frequent, but there was a large gap
from last to second-to-last. About 9000 years. It's named Mt
Wellington and is about 20 miles away. The first volcanoes are now the
Auckland domain  (right next to the main hospital which is built on
the side of its now wholly eroded cone) and Albert Park which nestles
against the inner city.

NZ is the densest location on earth for young small volcanic cones and
Auckland is the headquarters.
Opportunities for GREAT excitement exist :-)

When the volcano comes, if near but not in lava flow range (can run
for miles, consult topo map), send family packing asap. Lay in water,
food, essentials, ladders, head torches, batteries et al. Hide well
somewhere half safe on your section. Come out at night, climb ladder,
sweep/shovel ash from roof. Hide. Repeat as required. Shovel
neighbours roofs if keen. Many roofs will collapse under ash load.
Yours won't. Try not to die. If they see you they will come and take
you away, so hide well.  It's interesting to see the results where
this is done in other volcano towns. Rabaul (IIRC) had aerial photos
of lines of squashed houses with the occasional one OK where people
had stayed illegally and shovelled the roof.



       RM


Auckland volcanoes. Excellent

       http://www.gns.cri.nz/what/earthact/volcanoes/nzvolcanoes/aucklandprint.htm

NZ Volcanoes. Ok

       http://vulcan.wr.usgs.gov/Volcanoes/NewZealand/description_new_zealand_volcanoes.html

NZ Geological and Nuclear sciences site. Excellent

       http://www.gns.cri.nz/search/index.html


2005\09\05@220042 by Jinx

face picon face
> The city is quite literally built on an overlapping mat of volcanoes.
> Not many people realise this :-)

Cyclists do ;-(

2005\09\06@042530 by Sean Schouten

face picon face
>
> Sadam claimed that he invaded Kuwait because
> they were drilling sideways over the boarder and stealing oil from Iraq.


That is a fact. I personally know the person doing soil investigation at the pumpingstation's building site. Kuwait got them selves the biggest and most powerfull pump there was to get so they could suck Iraq dry.

2005\09\06@043148 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Russell,

On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 13:36:02 +1200, Russell McMahon wrote:

>...<
> NZ is the densest location on earth for young small volcanic cones and
> Auckland is the headquarters.
> Opportunities for GREAT excitement exist :-)
>
> When the volcano comes, if near but not in lava flow range (can run
> for miles, consult topo map), send family packing asap. Lay in water,
> food, essentials, ladders, head torches, batteries et al.

How about Scuba gear and plenty of air tanks, in case of gas cloud?

> Hide well somewhere half safe on your section.

...in a well insulated airtight room, capable of withstanding a pyroclastic surge?  Or don't your volcanoes
have those?  (Only certain types do, apparently.  Mt. St.Helens famously did).

> Come out at night, climb ladder, sweep/shovel ash from roof. Hide. Repeat as required.

Any idea what the critical angle would be, where the ash wouldn't settle to any serious depth?  My roof is at
45 degrees, the houses at the bottom of the garden about 55, bungalows up the road about 30 - I wouldn't give
*them* much of a chance!  We do get the very occasional small earthquake in Britain, but the last volcanic
activity was millions of years ago (by contrast, the water level rise that swamped the land-bridge between us
and the continent was only 9,000 years ago!).

If you had plenty of warning, could you build an over-roof at a steep angle to act as an umbrella?

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\09\06@061526 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> ...  oil from Iraq.

I suggest that the Iraqi oil ministry spokesman really needs to get a
new name ;-).

_________________

"11 southern Iraqi oil fields to go up for tender".

       http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level.php?cat=Business&loid=8.0.185260588&par=0

___________________________

Baghdad, 8 July 2005 (AKI) - Eleven oil fields in southern Iraq,
capable of boosting the country's production to three million barrels
a day will soon be tendered to international investors, the Iraqi oil
ministry announced Friday. "The ministry needs legislation which will
allow it to fix international work criteria with companies that are
involved in petroleum investments," said the ministry's spokesman,
Asim Jihad.


"Iraq needs capital investments to develop its petroleum industry, he
said, adding that the government had estimated that some 25 billion
dollars in investments were required to boost oil production to 5-6
million barrels a day.

Jihad also said that the government has no intention to privatise the
oil sector, but would remain under state control.

"We will seek foreign investments, that will allow us to develop our
industry but without paving the way for foreign monopolies to take
over," he said.

Iraq currently produces 2.2 million barrels a day - with only 1.5
million of these for export - a situation determined by the suspension
of operations in the country's southern areas after sabotage attacks.



2005\09\06@065756 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Russell,

On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 22:14:50 +1200, Russell McMahon wrote:

> > ...  oil from Iraq.
>
> I suggest that the Iraqi oil ministry spokesman really needs to get a
> new name ;-).

LOL!  I wonder how his ancestors got it in the first place?

>...<
> Jihad also said that the government has no intention to privatise the
> oil sector, but would remain under state control.
>
> "We will seek foreign investments, that will allow us to develop our
> industry but without paving the way for foreign monopolies to take
> over," he said.

Hmmm... does GWB know about this, I wonder?

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\09\06@071039 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> Sadam claimed that he invaded Kuwait because
> they were drilling sideways over the boarder and stealing oil from
> Iraq.

That is a fact. I personally know the person doing soil investigation
at the
pumpingstation's building site. Kuwait got them selves the biggest and
most
powerfull pump there was to get so they could suck Iraq dry.

_____________

Kuwait may indeed have been slant drilling, as claimed.
And Iraq may have been too.

But the real value of such claims is to attempt to add legitimacy to
going to war. This is the almost invariable practice when one wishes
to be the first to march an army across  a frontier. (

Kuwait may perhaps have been able to steal millions of dollars of oil
by slant drilling, but there was no prospect of them making a
significant dent on Iraqi production.

This excellent, fascinating (if you're like me :-) ) and largish (400
kB) map

       http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/al_basrah_iraq_80.jpg

shows the area around (Al) Basra(h) and down into the top of Kuwait.
It is perhaps 50 miles wide. The Rumaila field may have been an
achievable target, but even the zubair field is outside sensible
range, and these are but two of the many Iraqi fields. Ironically, at
present the southern Iraqi fields are mostly not producing.

Notice that the map shows oil fields, roads, AND underground oil
pipelines.

See other same subject post for more oil related maps etc




       RM




2005\09\06@071132 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
>... Kuwait ... oil ... Iraq.


1976 map showing how the two countries relate and their position in
the gulf. Scale is such that only the most major roads are shown. For
example, In Kuwait the only road shown is the one running from the
Iraqi border, down the middle of the country to Kuwait City and then
on down (near) the coast into Saudi Arabia.

       http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/kuwait_bahrain_pol_1976.jpg

Map showing Iraqi oilfields and major pipelines.
SAYS it's a 2003 map but annotations at bottom suggest it may be 1976
based.
No roads shown.
It's ~~400 miles top to bottom

       http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/iraq_oil_2003.jpg

Fascinating (again) 1953 Iraq oil industry map.
Little pertinence to modern day but well worth looking at.
Looks like something from an Indiana Jones, or Tin Tin movie.

   http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/iraq_oil_industry_1953.jpg

Very olde style 1972 Kuwait and other gulf states map
Only one road shown.

       http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/kuwait_persian_gulf_pol_1972.jpg

Yet another oil map
1975 ????

       http://www.judicialwatch.org/IraqOilMap.pdf


__________________________

Interest only:

Iraq land utilisation 1978
Pretty.

       http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/iraq_land_1978.jpg

Iraq population map 2003

       http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/iraq_pop_2003.jpg



               RM

2005\09\06@071158 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Jinx wrote:

>> ****BUT**** by far the most likely and most devastating of all is
>> a genetic engineering accident.

> This hardly made the new -
>
> GM animals contaminate land

This is the same -- hm, I'll call it tentatively "engineering arrogance" --
that claims that it is possible to store radioactive material safely for
tens of thousands of years. Just as impossible as containing genetic
material within a field.

Not even considering that pretty much all our engineering experience
doesn't go back more than a hundred years at most (for the technologies in
question), we have enough evidence telling us that most of the stuff that
/can/ happen eventually /will/ happen... not always but not predictably
not.

Gerhard

2005\09\06@072217 by Jinx

face picon face
> >> ****BUT**** by far the most likely and most devastating of all is
> >> a genetic engineering accident.
>
> > This hardly made the news -
> >
> > GM animals contaminate land
>
> This is the same -- hm, I'll call it tentatively "engineering
arrogance" --
> that claims that it is possible to store radioactive material safely for
> tens of thousands of years. Just as impossible as containing genetic
> material within a field.

It seems that there are two groups butting heads. The update on that
is, as I heard on the radio news (http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz  , you can
listen to talkback live from NZ BTW) this evening -

No evidence for gene transfer scare

6/09/2005 15:24:15

Tests have failed to find any evidence of genetically-modified cows
and sheep contaminating land they are grazing in the Waikato, despite
claims made at the weekend by GE Free New Zealand.

AgResearch Bio-technologies manager Jimmy Suttie says it is not
unusual to find naturally occurring antibiotic resistant bacteria in the
soil

Dr Suttie says sophisticated tests have not found the specific gene
used in the cattle in the soil bacteria

He adds such gene transfer has never been found during or after
field trials anywhere in the world

2005\09\06@081451 by Bill & Pookie

picon face
US  troups (fedrical government) are not being used to police in New
Orleans.  It could be done, but the relunctance to have any appearence of
this may be part of the problem with the slow  responce.

The troups there under arms are state malita under control of the governers
of the states involved.  The federal troups may have wepons with them but
they are for support and not policeing.

Bill

{Original Message removed}

2005\09\06@082843 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Russell,

On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 22:54:27 +1200, Russell McMahon wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Wow, I can see why the Kurds want self-government - they have a *lot* of the oilfields!

> Fascinating (again) 1953 Iraq oil industry map.
> Little pertinence to modern day but well worth looking at.
> Looks like something from an Indiana Jones, or Tin Tin movie.
>
>     http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/iraq_oil_industry_1953.jpg

I wonder why one of the pair of pipelines heading for Haifa stops short (in Jordan, I think?)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\09\06@093328 by alan smith

picon face


These efforts are stymied by lack of adequate communications. You
can't send your group out there until you have a way of contacting
them at any time, and vice versa. The ARRL is trying to send in the
hams, but that's yet another organization that has to get
authorization.


Isnt that what RACES is setup to do....???


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

2005\09\06@095431 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Wow, I can see why the Kurds want self-government -
>they have a *lot* of the oilfields!

My understanding is that this is also the reason why it is taking so long to
set up the constitution - the group that Saddam came from is in a region
with miniscule oil, and so they won't agree to the proposed constitution,
without some fair means of spreading the income than that currently
proposed.

2005\09\06@095514 by alan smith

picon face
All I can say...is......after spending a week in New Orleans last month.....it was a scary place without the water everywhere.  I did take my wide band programmable VHF radio with me...just in case something did happne.  Timing is everything right?

I do have 72 hr kits...in my home and in my cars.  I have radio gear in each as well.  In a time of emergency and if I had to evacuate, these do allow me to be self sufficient for at least 72 hours, if not more if I am carefull in rationing my supplies.

Spehro Pefhany <@spam@speff@spam@spamspam_OUTinterlog.com> wrote:
At 11:32 AM 9/5/2005 +1200, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

A major earthquake whacking Tokyo is well overdue. They've generally
hit every 70 years, and the most recent one was in 1923. It will probably
kill many thousands and there could be a lot of fires from the heating gas
that's used throughout the city.

And (because of investments) if it were to happen tomorrow, my income
would probably double or triple this year. 8-(

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
spamBeGonespeffspamKILLspaminterlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
->> Inexpensive test equipment & parts http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZspeff


2005\09\06@114136 by David Van Horn

picon face
>
> These efforts are stymied by lack of adequate communications. You
> can't send your group out there until you have a way of contacting
> them at any time, and vice versa. The ARRL is trying to send in the
> hams, but that's yet another organization that has to get
> authorization.
>
>
> Isnt that what RACES is setup to do....???

Around here, races has nets for an hour or two where only two people
check in. They sit silent mostly, once they are done "checking in" all
their buddies.  They do manage to yell at you if you thought the
repeater was unused, and you started to make a Qso.




2005\09\06@115558 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Dave,

On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 10:44:26 -0500, David Van Horn wrote:

> Around here, races has nets for an hour or two where only two people
> check in. They sit silent mostly, once they are done "checking in" all
> their buddies.  They do manage to yell at you if you thought the
> repeater was unused, and you started to make a Qso.

If nobody is transmitting, a repeater IS unused!  :-)

In Britain the Emergency Services can ask any radio amateur to relay messages for them - it's part of the
licence and one of the justifications for allowing radio amateurs to operate.  There are organisations whose
purpose is to coordinate this (RAYNET is one that springs to mind) but they don't have to be involved - any
individual ham can be asked to do it.

Cheers,

Howard Winter  G1BYY
St.Albans, England



2005\09\06@130458 by David Van Horn

picon face


> -----Original Message-----
> From: .....piclist-bouncesspam_OUTspammit.edu [TakeThisOuTpiclist-bounces.....spamTakeThisOuTmit.edu] On
Behalf
{Quote hidden}

all
> > their buddies.  They do manage to yell at you if you thought the
> > repeater was unused, and you started to make a Qso.
>
> If nobody is transmitting, a repeater IS unused!  :-)

Oh you should hear just how vehemently it is NOT unused..
It makes me a bit ashamed to be a ham.

Then again, I remember that someone has to hold up the top 50% :)




2005\09\06@140814 by Thomas C. Sefranek

face picon face
VHF (Repeaters) are a local only RACES communications vehicle.
It is sad that the "good Ol boys" control the use of the repeater.
I don't allow that sort of thing to happen on my repeater...

For "real" RACES, come join us on HF.
The last week I have burned MANY an hour passing H&W traffic into the
disaster area.  I would love to hear more traffic FROM the disaster area!

Tom

 *
 |  __O    Thomas C. Sefranek  TakeThisOuTtcsKILLspamspamspamcmcorp.com
 |_-\<,_   Amateur Radio Operator: WA1RHP
 (*)/ (*)  Bicycle mobile on 145.41MHz PL74.4

ARRL Instructor, Technical Specialist, VE Contact.
hamradio.cmcorp.com/inventory/Inventory.html
http://www.harvardrepeater.org

{Original Message removed}

2005\09\06@152403 by Peter

picon face


On Tue, 6 Sep 2005, Howard Winter wrote:

> How about Scuba gear and plenty of air tanks, in case of gas cloud?

And fireproof undies in case of pyroclastic flow ? (see Pompeii for
possible effects)

You are taking a big chance staying even if no smaller earthquakes drop
the house on you.

Peter

2005\09\06@174220 by David Minkler

flavicon
face
Aside from the 5.1 at Obsidian Butte (unusual to see one this large at
that particular location), there has been nothing unusual going on for
the last week.  There is usually a large 3.X (3.8 near Tijuana) or small
4.X somewhere on the map (this one < http://quake.wr.usgs.gov/recenteqs/
> ) and this covers the last week.  Good links to other quake sites.

Dave

David Van Horn wrote:

>Almost buried in the news this week, is major seismic swarms in the
>salton sea area, and all up and down the san andreas.
>
>
>
>  
>


2005\09\06@182819 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
> This is the same -- hm, I'll call it tentatively "engineering
> arrogance" -- that claims that it is possible to store
> radioactive material safely for tens of thousands of years.
> Just as impossible as containing genetic material within a field.


There is another side to arrogance: That of assuming that we are capable of
making a significant difference in our environment when compared to the
grand and awesome power of nature.

It isn't a popular point of view right now, and I know, certainly, that
there are things humans have done that have polluted and damaged the earth,
but it also seems to me that claims that we could somehow destroy all of
nature and wipe all life off the planet give us rather more credit than we
are due.

I think we tend to have delusions of grandeur in some cases both with regard
to our ability to improve the world, and also with regard to our potential
to damage it.

"Mother Nature" (to put a name to it) doesn't give a sniff what we do one
way or the other.

Life finds a way.

There are other reasons why GMO's are probably not a good idea, and maybe an
accident could cause horrible damage, but not to the extent that we should
put our heads in the sand and stop trying. We need to learn, make mistakes,
and grow. There are other problems with our food:
http://www.themeatrix.com

And with regard to storing radioactive material safely, how did the earth
store it safely before we dug it up? What difference does it make if we put
it back? Yes, it might have a shorter half life and so may put out more
radiation, but if it is down in the earth or at the bottom of the ocean, so
what? In 10's of thousands of years, it will just have decayed that much
faster.

I would be perfectly happy to have nuke waste buried in my back yard. Quite
a ways down, thank you, and I would keep a counter handy, but other than
that, no objections. Better that than breathing the fumes of fossil fuels.

The overly emotional objections to nuclear power are one reason why we have
problems with ports like New Orleans today. More nuke plants would allow us
to import less oil and therefore not need super tanker ports as we do.

I swear, there must have been fear mongering against nuke power by the big
oil and auto companies. It just isn't anywhere near as bad as people think
it is.

Check the air quality at any of the major ports and tell me that it wouldn't
be safer for those ships to be nuke powered.

Even Chernobyl, with a single loop, no safety and criminal mismanagement of
a melt down, is still supporting life. Moss, grass, wolves, dear, frogs.
They live happy full lives. Well, not so much the dear who live with the
wolves. Just not very many humans. More than 700,000 still live there... for
now. And you can take a tour, just don't drink the water or eat the fruit.
http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/kiddofspeed/chapter34.html

www.chernobyl.info/index.php?userhash=10544300&navID=155&lID=2
Of the original 800,000 people in the area, between 25 and 100 thousand have
died from the radiation. 60,000 people die in the USA each and every year in
car accidents. I commute 1 hour each day. It could be argued that I would be
safer living on a farm in Chernobyl. That would, of course, not be true
because there are 115 million commuters in the USA so 60k is about 0.05
percent as opposed to between 3 and 12 percent dying there. So I'm at least
60 times safer here. But still, people LIVE in the aftermath of the most
horrible nuke meltdown to date. And they would do better if they would stop
drinking the milk. Cows tend to concentrate radiation.

Life finds a way.

Stop the emotion. Look at the hard cold numbers.

How many of you know how to survive an atomic bomb blast? The currently
living survivors of the bombing of Hiroshima know better than to drink the
black rain or to crawl into a pool. About half of them survived the bombing.
They know what sort of a building you want to be working in and where to
position your desks. They know were to go after the blast. They are still
alive. Hiroshima is alive. 2 million 882 thousand people as of 1995. Up from
around 0 in 1945. Seems to have recovered well in 50 years.

Life finds a way.

How much better would life be for the people of New Orleans if all this oil
were replaced by nice, clean, nuke power?

---
James
http://www.massmind.org
What do YOU know?

2005\09\06@184120 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
>> How about Scuba gear and plenty of air tanks, in case of gas cloud?

Good idea. Even though small scale (probably).

> And fireproof undies in case of pyroclastic flow ? (see Pompeii for
> possible effects)

Pyroclastic flow of any m,agnitude unlikely here. Unlikely :-). See my
copmments on Taupo for that! A wave travelling at near the speed of
sound and 1 km+ tall would be something to see. But you'd only see it
once.



       RM

2005\09\06@184123 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> ... so they won't agree to the proposed constitution,
> without some fair means of spreading the income than that currently
> proposed.

Fairness never seemed to be a problem previously :-)


       RM

2005\09\06@190728 by Jinx

face picon face
An opinion piece that puts the blame on NO mayor Ray Nagin
and LS governor Blanco, in light of other hurricane events. By
Bob Williams, "a former state legislator who represented the
legislative district most impacted by the eruption of Mount St.
Helens in 1980"

http://www.leightonsmith.co.nz/

Leighton Smith is decidedly right-wing (not screamingly so, but
Michael Moore is not on his Christmas card list), judge for
yourself whether that affects his selection of articles. I'd like to
think that he is generally a fair commentator

2005\09\06@192955 by John Nall

picon face
Jinx wrote:

>An opinion piece that puts the blame on NO mayor Ray Nagin
>and LS governor Blanco, in light of other hurricane events.
>
.
The Bush administration is putting a lot of effort into shifting the
blame onto local authorities.  Interesting that nothing is said
regarding the Bush budget cuts that took out some $130 million that the
Army Corps of Engineers had requested for levee strengthening (although
the administration passively went along with giving the state of Alaska
$231 million to build a bridge over to an island where no one lives).  
But these rascals are good at their spinning (Goebbels would be proud)
and people are stupid enough to believe it.  Whoever said "you can fool
all the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time,
but you cannot fool all of  the people all of the time" just didn't
figure on the fact  that you only have to fool 51% of them.  :-)  And to
do that, you just have to repeat the mantra:  
"9/11...terrorism....9/11...terrorism...9/11 . . ."

John

2005\09\06@195145 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Russell,

On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 10:20:41 +1200, Russell McMahon wrote:

> > ... so they won't agree to the proposed constitution,
> > without some fair means of spreading the income than that currently
> > proposed.
>
> Fairness never seemed to be a problem previously :-)

And they don't agree that "You had it before, now it's our turn" is fair!  :-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\09\06@201905 by Dave King

flavicon
face
That wouldn't be the same levee money that was spent by NO officials to
promote floating casino's and build marinas...

Dave

{Quote hidden}

2005\09\06@202432 by R. I. Nelson

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John Nall wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Why not blame LOCAL authorities.  They have continued to build in a low
spot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:New_Orleans_Levee_System.gif

Here in wisconsin my friend owns some land next to a stream.  the land
has never flooded in 80 years according to old timer around here.  But
yet the city and state will not allow him to build on it ever because it
is on a 100 yr. storm flood plain they say.

Yet the state and local governments down there continued to build things
below normal water levels.  And they knew if a CAT 4 or 5 hurricane hit
this would happen.  It happened and will probably happen again so why re
build there.

Tell me why the state and city Gov. should not get the most of the blame
and the federal Gov. should get blamed for staying out of state politics
like they are supposed to.



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2005\09\06@204330 by Jinx

face picon face
> Why not blame LOCAL authorities. They have continued to
> build in a low spot

That happens in many places around the world. Building consents
are granted in areas that are prone to potentially serious flooding.
In NZ you could cite the area around the Grey River, and there
are basins in the UK where the population get an unwelcome bath
from time to time. Then you have regular disasters in Bangladesh
etc. People live on Etna, they live in the Arctic, they live in Ethiopia

Whaddyagonnado ?


2005\09\06@213225 by John Nall

picon face
R. I. Nelson wrote:

> > Tell me why the state and city Gov. should not get the most of the
> blame and the federal Gov. should get blamed for staying out of state
> politics like they are supposed to.


Uh, how about because the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers has the
jurisdiction (and the legal responsibility) for maintaining the
levees???  Has absolutely nothing to do with state politics.  Has to do
with navigable waterways and jusrisdiction.





2005\09\06@213330 by John Nall

picon face
Dave King wrote:

>That wouldn't be the same levee money that was spent by NO officials to
>promote floating casino's and build marinas...
>  
>
Nope.   The Corps of Engineers budget has nothing whatsoever to do with
state money.


2005\09\06@235145 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Sep 6, 2005, at 4:07 PM, Jinx wrote:

> An opinion piece that puts the blame on ...

Ah.  THAT'S the difference between the US and a third world country.
The flood waters are barely receding, and already we have congress,
politicians, media, and so on (including microcontroller-topic mailing
lists :-) spending money and resources figuring out where to assign the
blame...

BillW

2005\09\07@015658 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> There is another side to arrogance: That of assuming that we
> are capable of
> making a significant difference in our environment when
> compared to the
> grand and awesome power of nature.

I think we humans are indeed not capable of making a change to our
environment conform our wishes. I fear we are all too much capable of
making an unintented  change that (in retrospect) we did not want to
make!

Maybe nearly all of nature will survive such a change. But will a
certain primate be still part of that surviving nature?

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\09\07@022103 by Jake Anderson

flavicon
face
according to recent reports out of the UN
about 4000 people will die (in total past and future) due to chernobal
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7951


> {Original Message removed}

2005\09\07@035145 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> according to recent reports out of the UN
> about 4000 people will die (in total past and future) due to
> chernobal
> http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7951

>> www.chernobyl.info/index.php?userhash=10544300&navID=155&lID=2
>> Of the original 800,000 people in the area, between 25 and 100
>> thousand have died from the radiation.

One can be reasonably certain that neither the UN's figures nor those
of James' source are realistic.

Let's see, the geometric mean of 4,000 & 25,000 is 10,000.
For 4,000 and 100,000 it's 20,000.

OK - lets say 10,000 to 20,000.
That will be wrong too, of course ;-)
But very likely closer than the UN figure.



       RM




2005\09\07@053953 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
James Newtons Massmind wrote:

> There is another side to arrogance: That of assuming that we are capable of
> making a significant difference in our environment when compared to the
> grand and awesome power of nature.

We don't. But we can (and do) make an impact significant enough to modify
the environment so that it is not friendly to us anymore.

> Stop the emotion. Look at the hard cold numbers.

I'll try to put it this way: We are incredibly stupid, collectively. Look
at all the wars -- the hard cold numbers show that any attempt to apply
reason to explain our collective actions is futile.

The question (for me) is not whether oil or nukes. The question is to start
working on what we /really/ need to develop: collective smarts. This has
such an immense efficiency potential that any technological solution faints
in comparison.

> Life finds a way.

No doubt. But to me, that's not the question. The question is /which/
way...

> The overly emotional objections to nuclear power are one reason why we have
> problems with ports like New Orleans today.

Pardon me if I disagree (in classifying my objection as "overly
emotional"... and classify this as an "overly emotional objection" to an
objection to nuclear energy :)

> There are other problems with our food: http://www.themeatrix.com

And as an added thought: What is the equivalent of moving to sustainable
farming in the energy sector?

Gerhard

2005\09\07@071851 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Wouter,

On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 07:54:55 +0200, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

>...<
>  I fear we are all too much capable of
> making an unintented  change that (in retrospect) we did not want to
> make!
>
> Maybe nearly all of nature will survive such a change. But will a
> certain primate be still part of that surviving nature?

Indeed - people talk of something-or-other causing "the end of Life on Earth", but in fact it is very very
unlikely that Life will be wiped out.  Human life, yes, but that leaves an awful lot of other species!  Just
like when the dinosaurs disappeared, other types of life will take over - that's the way it goes!  It's
incredibly arrogant to think that Life == Human life, although I must admit that an awful lot of people do
thnk like this, not seeing the bigger picture.

Cheers,



Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\09\07@072626 by olin piclist

face picon face
James Newtons Massmind wrote:
> How much better would life be for the people of New Orleans if all this
> oil were replaced by nice, clean, nuke power?

Probably worse since oil is an important part of the economy down there.

*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\09\07@074147 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Gerhard,

On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 06:39:47 -0300, Gerhard Fiedler wrote:

>...<
> What is the equivalent of moving to sustainable farming in the energy sector?

What it comes down to is: "Using the energy that's arriving on Earth now, rather than that which arrived in
the past".  

Coal, Oil, Gas ("Fossil fuels" - the clue is in the name :-) are stores of energy that arrived some time ago,
and if we use them they are bound to run out one day.  How far away that day is does not matter - if humans
are to continue living on Earth then it will happen, because there aren't vast forests covering the land now,
so we aren't replenishing the fuel stocks for our ancestors.

By using only energy that is arriving now (solar, wind, wave etc.) we can carry on for ever, assuming we don't
spoil it some other way.

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\09\07@080554 by olin piclist

face picon face
Howard Winter wrote:
> By using only energy that is arriving now (solar, wind, wave etc.) ...

Think carefully.  Extracting energy from tides and to some extent waves and
wind is just converting kinetic energy stored in the earth's rotation,
something that was put there a long long time ago and isn't being renewed.

I'm not saying these are necessarily bad ideas, only that we should get our
physics right when talking about them.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\09\07@092931 by Dave Tweed

face
flavicon
face
olin_piclist@embedinc.com (Olin Lathrop) wrote:
> Howard Winter wrote:
> > By using only energy that is arriving now (solar, wind, wave etc.) ...
>
> Think carefully. Extracting energy from tides and to some extent waves
> and wind is just converting kinetic energy stored in the earth's
> rotation, something that was put there a long long time ago and isn't
> being renewed.

Tides, yes, but wind and waves are essentially solar-powered.

> I'm not saying these are necessarily bad ideas, only that we should get
> our physics right when talking about them.

I agree completely. :-)

-- Dave Tweed

2005\09\07@094053 by Lawrence Lile

picon face
>>
>Here in wisconsin my friend owns some land next to a stream.  the land has
>never flooded in 80 years according to old timer around here.  But yet the
>city and state will not allow him to build on it ever because it is on a
>100 yr. storm flood plain they say.
>

The City and State are smart guys. The so-called 100 year flood level has
been breached, in my county, twice since 1992, and has been matched in 1956,
1973 and 1986.  I had a house safely above the 100 year floodplain in 1993,
that building ended up with four feet of water in it, became dozerbait.  
People around here say, "If you build on the river, plan to build again."  
The 100 year flood line is a joke.  If that guy hasn't seen a flood that
high in 80 years, then odds are it's coming soon.  An old timer told me
there was no way water would be in my house, he hadn't seen any water in
that house in 80 years.

I would argue that areas of New Orleans that are below sea level should be
bulldozed.  If a house is put back, the house has to be put on pilings and
raised to at least ten feet above sea level - higher right near the water.  
It looks goofy, but there is a whole town on stilts near where I live, and
most of the houses right on the Gulf Coast are up on stilts.

I imagine that a big fraction of the million or so displaced people in N.O.
will not be coming back anyway.

A simple way to enforce better building practices would be to cancel federal
flood insurance coverage for any new  or renovated building below sea level
in N. O.   Private insurers should be prevented from insuring buildings
below sea level.


--Lawrence

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2005\09\07@095124 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
On 9/6/05, John Nall <RemoveMEjwnallspamspamBeGonegmail.com> wrote:
> R. I. Nelson wrote:
>
> > > Tell me why the state and city Gov. should not get the most of the
> > blame and the federal Gov. should get blamed for staying out of state
> > politics like they are supposed to.
>
>
> Uh, how about because the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers has the
> jurisdiction (and the legal responsibility) for maintaining the
> levees???  Has absolutely nothing to do with state politics.  Has to do
> with navigable waterways and jusrisdiction.

It's about power and control.  The state and city has been fighting
with the federal government over control of the funds that are
supposed to go to the army corp of engineers.  A reason why funding
was cut to the corp for projects in that area was that the local
officials were not handling funds 'appropiately'.  Furthermore, the
corp has indicated that the levees were at their full design strength
- meant to withstand, at most, a cat 3 storm.  There were studies
*about* to start on whether they should be strengthened, nevermind
actual plans to strengthen them.

Looking back, can we honestly say there were bad choices made
regarding the protection?  Do you spend billions of dollars to gain
that last little 0.01% of protection?  The point of diminishing
returns was decided long ago to be a direct hit with a category three
storm.  It took decades before a storm exceeding design parameters
hit.

The real problem, as I see it, was two-fold:
1) The evacuation of the city and other potentially deadly areas was
mandatory, but not forced, before the storm, and the leaders did not
make sufficient resources available to those who did not have the
ability to leave on their own.  This was compounded by inadequate
shelters and associated resources for those who had to stay
(emergency, utility, etc).
2) The response was slow due to inadequate planning and poor
communications.  The *local* government should have had a plan that
went into effect instantly that indicated who was in charge, and the
exact steps/process to follow to evacuate and tend to those in
immediate danger while at the same time working on breaches and
pumping stations.  It took far too long to survey the damage, much
less respond to it not because the resources weren't available, but
because they didn't plan for it.  If you don't make critical decisions
long before the emergency ever happens, then you are left with only
poor decisions during the emergency.

Too many people plan for emergencies the way some people plan
vacations - let's wait until we get there and then we'll decide what
we want to do.  Now everyone's playing the blame game so they aren't
seen as the 'weak link', ruining their political career.  Nagin, most
of all, doesn't want to be known as 'The man who sunk New Orleans.'
There are a lot of things he should be focusing on, but he's spending
an awful lot of time telling the american public who's to blame for
this catastrophe.

It will be cheaper, in the long run, to build levees that can
withstand another cat 3 and then improve the shelter system and
develop a realistic emergency response that includes the ability to
block large breaches in the levee.  I don't beleive that making the
levees work for cat 5 storms is realistic, mainly due to the constant
maintenance and the further destruction of the costline.  Furthermore,
that would make people less likely to plan for the inevitable.

-Adam

2005\09\07@095352 by David Van Horn

picon face
> Private insurers should be prevented from insuring buildings
> below sea level.

Even in Death Valley?

Gotta watch those blanket rules.



2005\09\07@095635 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Perfect analysis, Lile. Federal flood insurance is the cause of a lot of
this beach construction.
Private insurers are not as stupid.

--Bob

Lawrence Lile wrote:

{Quote hidden}

--
Note: To protect our network,
attachments must be sent to
spamBeGoneattach@spam@spamspam_OUTengineer.cotse.net .
1-866-263-5745 USA/Canada
http://beam.to/azengineer

2005\09\07@102058 by olin piclist

face picon face
Dave Tweed wrote:
>> Think carefully. Extracting energy from tides and to some extent waves
>> and wind is just converting kinetic energy stored in the earth's
>> rotation, something that was put there a long long time ago and isn't
>> being renewed.
>
> Tides, yes, but wind and waves are essentially solar-powered.

Mostly, which is why I said "to some extent".  Much of the wind patterns are
due to the rotation of the earth, which I know is different than being
powered by them.  I was thinking that the effect that the rotation has is
probably still adding some power and therefore slowing the rotation, but
I'll admit that's a miniscule effect compared to solar heating.  In other
words, yeah you're right.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\09\07@112308 by John Nall

picon face
M. Adam Davis wrote:

>> Looking back, can we honestly say there were bad choices made
>regarding the protection?  Do you spend billions of dollars to gain
>that last little 0.01% of protection?  The point of diminishing
>returns was decided long ago to be a direct hit with a category three
>storm.  It took decades before a storm exceeding design parameters
>hit.
>  
>
Well, yes, there are always those diminishing returns.  :-)  Except that
in this particular case they were not all that diminishing.  First: the
Corps was talking about $130 million to strengthen the levees -- not
billions.  Second: all of the reputable scientists have been saying for
a few years that the frequency and strength of hurricanes is increasing,
and this is forecast to last throughout the next decade -- category 4
and even category 5 will be more likely.  Third:  the Wall Street
Journal, which is hardly a shill for left-wing politicians, estimates
the damages at $200 billion.  Even the most ideology-driven bean-counter
should be able to look at $131 millon on the one hand, and $200 billion
on the other hand, and make a sensible choice.  And this does not even
taken into account the lives lost and disrupted.

{Quote hidden}

Please note that I am not in any way defending the local government.  
Louisiana has long had a reputation for corrupt, inefficient government,
and New Orleans had the reputation for being the worst.  But this does
not in any way excuse the present federal administration.  They don't
believe in global warming, disregard scientists who won't toe the party
line, think stem-cell research is "sinful" (whatever that means), and so
I can see that they would not take any notice of what was right there in
front of their noses with regard to the changing weather patterns..

I used to wonder, back in college when I had history courses, how in the
world Europe could possibly go from the Greek and Roman civilization to
the Dark Ages.  Now I think I know.  Just let religious fundamentalists
get control of the government.

John Nall

2005\09\07@131645 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Dave,

On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 08:56:42 -0500, David Van Horn wrote:

> > Private insurers should be prevented from insuring buildings
> > below sea level.
>
> Even in Death Valley?
>
> Gotta watch those blanket rules.

LOL!  As far as I remember, the only building below sea level there is the public toilet :-)

It is impressive to look up the cliff to see the "Sea Level" sign - it's a *long* way up!

Cheers,



Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\09\07@133310 by Alex Harford

face picon face
On 9/4/05, Jinx <TakeThisOuTjoecolquittspamspamclear.net.nz> wrote:
> Are there any other "accidents waiting to happen" as
> big as New Orleans in the US ?

Just saw this on Slashdot.org:

http://livescience.com/forcesofnature/ap_050906_sisters_bulge.html

"A recent survey of a bulge that covers about 100 square miles near
the South Sister indicates the area is still growing, suggesting it
could be another volcano in the making or a major shift of molten rock
under the center of the Cascade Range."

Alex

2005\09\07@134503 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Olin,

On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 08:06:03 -0400, Olin Lathrop wrote:

> Howard Winter wrote:
> > By using only energy that is arriving now (solar, wind, wave etc.) ...
>
> Think carefully.  Extracting energy from tides and to some extent waves and
> wind is just converting kinetic energy stored in the earth's rotation,
> something that was put there a long long time ago and isn't being renewed.

Hang on a minute!

Wind and waves are caused by solar energy variations creating different air pressures, which the wind tries to
equalise, with the waves being created as a result of the friction of the wind on the water (Tsunamis
notwithstanding!).  The wind direction is affected by the rotation of the Earth (Coriolis effect) but the
presence and strength of the wind isn't.

Tides are caused by the gravitational pull of the Sun and the Moon on the water - the rotation of the Earth
contributes friction, which may help or hinder the flow of water, but it doesn't cause it (except to the
extent that the apparent motion of the Sun is caused by it).  The variation between the extremes of Spring and
Neap tides is due to the interference between the two gravitational pulls, which vary at differerent
frequencies, and the variations in friction caused by this mean that the Earth doesn't rotate at a constant
speed, but the effect is tiny in real terms.  Anything we did would be minuscule compared to the natural
effects that are happening all the time.

> I'm not saying these are necessarily bad ideas, only that we should get our
> physics right when talking about them.

Quite!  :-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\09\07@135804 by Peter

picon face

On Wed, 7 Sep 2005, Russell McMahon wrote:

>>> How about Scuba gear and plenty of air tanks, in case of gas cloud?
>
> Good idea. Even though small scale (probably).
>
>> And fireproof undies in case of pyroclastic flow ? (see Pompeii for
>> possible effects)
>
> Pyroclastic flow of any m,agnitude unlikely here. Unlikely :-). See my
> copmments on Taupo for that! A wave travelling at near the speed of sound and
> 1 km+ tall would be something to see. But you'd only see it once.

Right. You stay there, and keep a huge shovel handy.

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/pompeii.htm

http://www.harcourtschool.com/activity/pompeii/pmpErup.html

The flow did 4 miles in 4 minutes. Incidentally it also went out over
the water where boats were caught by it and destroyed (this does not
appear directly in this account). So water is not a solution. Is 4
minutes long enough to read what you need to read ?

A more factual account:

http://www.smatch-international.org/DestructionPompeii.html

A recent tiny eruption of Mount St. Helens I think killed a few people
and caused river diversions that took 5 years to fix using huge
engineering works.

Peter

2005\09\07@141042 by John Ferrell

face picon face
If you really want flood insurance in Death Valley I am sure I can find
someone to sell it to you, law or no law...

John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Van Horn" <dvanhornEraseMEspammicrobrix.com>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <RemoveMEpiclistEraseMEspamspam_OUTmit.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 9:56 AM
Subject: RE: [OT] New Orleans


>> Private insurers should be prevented from insuring buildings
>> below sea level.
>
> Even in Death Valley?
>
> Gotta watch those blanket rules.
>
>
>
> --

2005\09\07@142053 by David Van Horn

picon face

The original statement was not that narrowly defined.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: @spam@piclist-bouncesRemoveMEspamEraseMEmit.edu [EraseMEpiclist-bouncesspam@spam@mit.edu] On
Behalf
> Of John Ferrell
> Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 1:14 PM
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
> Subject: Re: [OT] New Orleans
>
> If you really want flood insurance in Death Valley I am sure I can
find
{Quote hidden}

2005\09\07@143249 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 09:51:24 -0400, M. Adam Davis wrote:

> On 9/6/05, John Nall <jwnallspamBeGonespamgmail.com> wrote:
> > R. I. Nelson wrote:
> >
> > > > Tell me why the state and city Gov. should not get the most of the
> > > blame and the federal Gov. should get blamed for staying out of state
> > > politics like they are supposed to.

How about "Because letting people die while those in a position to save them argue the politics, is
disgusting"?

> > Uh, how about because the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers has the
> > jurisdiction (and the legal responsibility) for maintaining the
> > levees???  Has absolutely nothing to do with state politics.  Has to do
> > with navigable waterways and jusrisdiction.
>
> It's about power and control.  

But it should be about saving lives!  Anyone who has put their political career ahead of acting to save lives
should be charged with manslaughter (not to mention misfeasance).

> The state and city has been fighting
> with the federal government over control of the funds that are
> supposed to go to the army corp of engineers.  A reason why funding
> was cut to the corp for projects in that area was that the local
> officials were not handling funds 'appropiately'.  Furthermore, the
> corp has indicated that the levees were at their full design strength
> - meant to withstand, at most, a cat 3 storm.  There were studies
> *about* to start on whether they should be strengthened, nevermind
> actual plans to strengthen them.

Stable -->> Horse

Nature doesn't wait around for studies and cost-justifications to be completed.  The weather is getting worse,
and those in a posistion to deal with it should be looking for other places that may be affected, and get
things underway.  Now!  Not waiting for someone else to "start an initiative", they should already be doing
it.

> Looking back, can we honestly say there were bad choices made regarding the protection?

Yes!

> Do you spend billions of dollars to gain that last little 0.01% of protection?

How did you get this figure?  0.01% of what?

> The point of diminishing returns was decided long ago to be a direct hit with a category three storm.

Looks like it was underestimated then.  The $200billion that they are estimating in damage would build a very
effective defence system, and they just said on the radio that rescue, relocation and looking after survivors
is currently costing $1billion *a day*.

> It took decades before a storm exceeding design parameters hit.

Decades is nothing for the things we're talking about - a sea-defence system ought to be planned to last for
at least 50 years.  And things are predicted to get worse, so planning for the situation as it is now would be
inadequate.

> The real problem, as I see it, was two-fold:
> 1) The evacuation of the city and other potentially deadly areas was
> mandatory, but not forced, before the storm, and the leaders did not
> make sufficient resources available to those who did not have the
> ability to leave on their own.  This was compounded by inadequate
> shelters and associated resources for those who had to stay
> (emergency, utility, etc).

Not to mention those who couldn't evacuate under their own resources.  At last count there were 96 Britons
still unaccounted for, and I can't imagine they would have decided to stay there if they had the chance to get
away, so I tend to think that evacuating wasn't possible for a large number of people.

{Quote hidden}

Absolutely!  "Failing to plan is planning to fail".  But it starts at the top - I realise that layers of
government can make for fragmented response, but when something affects several States there should be a
hierarchy that allows action at the appropriate level, with Federal overall responsibility.  You don't fight a
war one State at a time (not these days anyway :-) so a disaster of this magnitude should be handled
similarly.

> Too many people plan for emergencies the way some people plan
> vacations - let's wait until we get there and then we'll decide what
> we want to do.

I don't know how they do emergency planning there, but over here there are "county emergency planning
officers" whose job it is to act, and coordinate, when something happens.  That could be something as small as
a missing child in the countryside, up to nuclear war.  There is a hierarchy that is set up to respond when
needed, and they rehearse from time to time to see what they need to change to improve things before the real
thing happens.  The rescue of the survivors of the 7/7 London Underground bombings was an example - they'd
rehearsed it some time before by closing an actual station on a Sunday morning and doing it as if it was real,
complete with actors as casualties.  Given that a breached levee wasn't exactly unpredictable as a
possibility, it's very sad that there weren't plans in place to cope with it.

> Now everyone's playing the blame game so they aren't
> seen as the 'weak link', ruining their political career.  Nagin, most
> of all, doesn't want to be known as 'The man who sunk New Orleans.'
> There are a lot of things he should be focusing on, but he's spending
> an awful lot of time telling the american public who's to blame for
> this catastrophe.

If everyone at every level stopped trying to shift blame, and concentrated on doing something useful now, and
learning by the shortcomings for next time, it would make a huge difference to the victims, present and
future.

> It will be cheaper, in the long run, to build levees that can
> withstand another cat 3 and then improve the shelter system and
> develop a realistic emergency response that includes the ability to
> block large breaches in the levee.

But during a Cat 4+ hurricane there's no way you'd be able to repair a breach - you could only do so
afterwards when the damage has already been done.

> I don't beleive that making the
> levees work for cat 5 storms is realistic, mainly due to the constant
> maintenance and the further destruction of the costline.

Costline?  Paging Dr.Freud!  :-)

I'm not sure what you mean here - a concrete wall doesn't need a lot of maintenence, but perhaps levees are
less durable than that - I don't know how they are built.

> Furthermore, that would make people less likely to plan for the inevitable.

The thing with planning for emergencies is not to try to predict the extent of them - plan for how to act up
to a certain level, and then have the flexibility built in to allow for going past that point.



Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\09\07@144024 by olin piclist

face picon face
Howard Winter wrote:
> The wind direction is affected by the rotation of
> the Earth (Coriolis effect) but the presence and strength of the wind
> isn't.

I don't think it's that clear.  If one side of the planet always faced the
sun, would there be much wind?  I think probably a lot less.  Also think of
the trade winds and other wind belts which blow predominantly in a east or
west direction.  It sounds quite plausible that both the strength and
presence (really the same thing since presence is strength not = 0) of this
wind are directly related to the earth's rotation.  It's not so clear that
the power behind the wind comes from that, and most of it probably doesn't,
but I don't think it can be dismissed so easily.

> Tides are caused by the gravitational pull of the Sun and the Moon on
> the water - the rotation of the Earth contributes friction, which may
> help or hinder the flow of water, but it doesn't cause it (except to
> the extent that the apparent motion of the Sun is caused by it).

Yeah, but that's exactly the effect the does cause tides, or at least causes
them to go up and down (which is where the power is derived from).  The
rotation of the earth doesn't in itself cause friction.  That happens
because things deform or move due to the changing pull of the external
gravitational field, which is all powered by the inertia of the earth
rotating.

Think of the reverse.  Let's say you make a float that goes up and down on
the ocean surface due to the tides, then hook it up to a generator to
extract power from that up and down motion.  Explain where that power comes
from if not from the kinetic energy stored in the rotating mass of the
planet?  By extracting the power from the float, you are making the planet
slow down ever so slightly.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\09\07@144044 by Peter

picon face


On Tue, 6 Sep 2005, John Nall wrote:

> Dave King wrote:
>
>> That wouldn't be the same levee money that was spent by NO officials to
>> promote floating casino's and build marinas...
>>
> Nope.   The Corps of Engineers budget has nothing whatsoever to do with state
> money.

Asce/Usgs study of the gulf wrt. levees, hurricanes, and what could
happen. 2003. They got everything right. They do not talk about
reconstruction. The historical buildings are the most likely to have
survived, they having been built on higher ground (they predate the
levee system).

http://www.pubs.asce.org/ceonline/ceonline03/0603feat.html

Peter

2005\09\07@144948 by olin piclist

face picon face
Howard Winter wrote:
> Decades is nothing for the things we're talking about - a sea-defence
> system ought to be planned to last for at least 50 years.

Isn't that about how long it DID last?

*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\09\07@145443 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
> The question (for me) is not whether oil or nukes. The
> question is to start working on what we /really/ need to
> develop: collective smarts. This has such an immense
> efficiency potential that any technological solution faints
> in comparison.

Absolutely brilliant! I totally agree.

"If you think education is expensive, try ignorance"

The only form of public handout that I support is free education. I think if
you can make the grades, your housing, food, medical care, tuition, books,
supplies and so on should be paid by public funds until you reach the
highest level of education your mind can manage.

Be we also have to make sure that the schools teach facts rather than
behaviors:
http://www.massmind.org/techref/other/schoolpurpose.htm

---
James Newton, massmind.org Knowledge Archiver
RemoveMEjames@spam@spamspamBeGonemassmind.org 1-619-652-0593 fax:1-208-279-8767
All the engineering secrets worth knowing:
http://techref.massmind.org What do YOU know?


2005\09\07@145752 by Peter

picon face

On Wed, 7 Sep 2005, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

>> There is another side to arrogance: That of assuming that we
>> are capable of
>> making a significant difference in our environment when
>> compared to the
>> grand and awesome power of nature.
>
> I think we humans are indeed not capable of making a change to our
> environment conform our wishes. I fear we are all too much capable of

Indeed, but they are capable of finding someone to blame it on (not
themselves, or at least not the humans who do the finding), and raise
and spend tax money for uncertain purposes related or unrelated to the
event, while they are at it.

> Maybe nearly all of nature will survive such a change. But will a
> certain primate be still part of that surviving nature?

Are we going for the Group Darwin award ?

Peter

2005\09\07@150115 by Peter

picon face

On Wed, 7 Sep 2005, Jake Anderson wrote:

> according to recent reports out of the UN
> about 4000 people will die (in total past and future) due to chernobal
> http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7951

And they represent about 0.2% of the local population (estimated at
about 2 million for the area directly affected), out of which about
200,000 were relocated.

Peter

2005\09\07@154908 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
James Newtons Massmind wrote:

>> The question (for me) is not whether oil or nukes. The question is to
>> start working on what we /really/ need to develop: collective smarts.
>> This has such an immense efficiency potential that any technological
>> solution faints in comparison.
>
> Absolutely brilliant! I totally agree.

Thanks :)

An added thought:

>>> Stop the emotion. Look at the hard cold numbers.
>>
>> I'll try to put it this way: We are incredibly stupid, collectively.

One reason why I think we are so stupid collectively is that a major part
of our decisions are determined by emotions. I take that as a fact. Even
decisions that appear technical in nature are heavily determined by
emotions. Why did you start looking into engineering, electronics, PICs?
That was in most cases not a logical decision in the root, it was some kind
of, hm, attraction. Emotion.

But emotions don't work on a scale like whole countries, multinational
industries, whatever big structure. They got developed to work on a scale
of a tribe: hundred or so, a few extended families. So maybe the question
is not to stop the emotions, but to make them work (properly) on a scale
they do not quite work, learn how to extend them.


> The only form of public handout that I support is free education.
> [...]
> Be we also have to make sure that the schools teach facts rather than
> behaviors:

Interesting idea. Having gone through the German public school system, I'm
convinced that a reasonable public school system is possible, and that it
is a good thing.

But to get to the extreme you are thinking of, I think the revolution would
have to come first: so far the purpose of schools (and that includes
probably most private schools) is not to teach facts nor to teach thinking,
it is to adapt the newcomers so that they can function properly within
society. Whatever facts and thinking get taught in the process seem to be
side effects; usually the work of a few inspired and reasonably enlightened
individuals. I can't see how this could be institutionalized. Facts and
thinking are by definition a threat to establishment, and so every
accumulation of power will tend to limit both to something between the
minimum necessary for proper function and maximum allowable for maintaining
power structures intact.

Gerhard

2005\09\07@162704 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
> > Maybe nearly all of nature will survive such a change. But will a
> > certain primate be still part of that surviving nature?
>
> Are we going for the Group Darwin award ?


Will the first alien signal intercepted by SETI be part of an intergalactic
"Darwin Awards"?

---
James.


2005\09\07@182251 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Olin Lathrop wrote:

> Think of the reverse.  Let's say you make a float that goes up and down on
> the ocean surface due to the tides, then hook it up to a generator to
> extract power from that up and down motion.  Explain where that power comes
> from if not from the kinetic energy stored in the rotating mass of the
> planet?  By extracting the power from the float, you are making the planet
> slow down ever so slightly.

Not necessarily. It could be that the energy would get transformed from
kinetic energy into other forms (heat?) anyway -- float or no float. Maybe
the float just redirects a small part of the energy flow that goes from
kinetic to thermal into electric instead; in that case, the float wouldn't
introduce an additional slowing, but would cause a certain ever so slight
cooling.

Gerhard

2005\09\07@182510 by M. Adam Davis
face picon face
On 9/7/05, John Nall <.....jwnall@spam@spamEraseMEgmail.com> wrote:
> billions.  Second: all of the reputable scientists have been saying for
> a few years that the frequency and strength of hurricanes is increasing,
> and this is forecast to last throughout the next decade -- category 4
> and even category 5 will be more likely.  Third:  the Wall Street

I would like to clear this up right now:

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/Landsea/downward/
Quote:
There is concern that the enhanced greenhouse effect may be affecting
extreme weather events such as tropical cyclones. The North Atlantic
basin offers a reliable, long-term record of tropical cyclone
activity, though it may not be representative of tropical cyclones
throughout the rest of the tropics. The most recent years of 1991
through 1994 have experienced the quietest tropical cyclone activity
on record in terms of frequency of tropical storms, hurricanes, and
intense hurricanes. This was followed by the 1995 hurricane season,
one of the busiest in the past 50 years. Despite 1995's activity, a
long-term (five decade) downward trend continues to be evident
primarily in the frequency of intense hurricanes. In addition, the
mean maximum intensity (i.e., averaged over all cyclones in a season)
has decreased, while the maximum intensity attained by the strongest
hurricane each year has not shown a significant change.

PLEASE cite resources indicating that hurricane frequency OR intensity
has gone up over the last century.  All documented resources I have
searched indicate otherwise, despite various advocacy groups which are
merely trying to redirect Katrina attention to their own cause.

> Journal, which is hardly a shill for left-wing politicians, estimates
> the damages at $200 billion.  Even the most ideology-driven bean-counter
> should be able to look at $131 millon on the one hand, and $200 billion
> on the other hand, and make a sensible choice.  And this does not even
> taken into account the lives lost and disrupted.

Even the most ideology-driven bean-counter DID look at $131 millon on
the one hand, and A STATISTICAL LIKELYHOOD of $200 billion on the
other hand, and make a sensible (or so it seemed at the time) choice.

Bean counters are notorious for saying, "we won't fund unless you can
prove a greater than x% chance in fewer than y years."

> Please note that I am not in any way defending the local government.
> Louisiana has long had a reputation for corrupt, inefficient government,
> and New Orleans had the reputation for being the worst.  But this does
> not in any way excuse the present federal administration.  They don't
> believe in global warming, disregard scientists who won't toe the party
> line, think stem-cell research is "sinful" (whatever that means), and so
> I can see that they would not take any notice of what was right there in
> front of their noses with regard to the changing weather patterns..

1) Yes, the response could have been better.  However it is not
necessarily due to the current administration - the government is
being run largely the same way it has always run, slowly with all too
many layers of bureaucracy.  Of course this can easily be disputed, so
there's little point in arguing it.
2) Global warming - there have been lots of conversation on this in
the past.  I'm not going to say whether the administration belives in
it or not, but I can see that of the options one might choose to take
a wait and see approach.  One can't weigh the global warming decision
in a vacuum - the economic impact of the kyoto treaty, for instance,
on the US would be huge.  It may be worth it, it may not.  Please
recall that the current adiministration was not the first to reject
it.
3) Stem cell research.  We sunk billions into fusion when it was at
the beginning of its research, and got nothing despite the revolution
it *promised* us.  I say let the privately funded organizations and
other countries have a crack at it.  Once it produces practical
results the government will be all over it.  Until then, especially
since there are unresolved ethical questions surrounding it, let's
wait and see.

>
> I used to wonder, back in college when I had history courses, how in the
> world Europe could possibly go from the Greek and Roman civilization to
> the Dark Ages.  Now I think I know.  Just let religious fundamentalists
> get control of the government.

Any extreme is generally bad.  The pendulum will swing the other way
as it always does - just be patient.

-Adam

2005\09\07@183716 by Jinx

face picon face
> should be able to look at $131 millon on the one hand, and $200
> billion on the other hand, and make a sensible choice.  And this
> does not even taken into account the lives lost and disrupted

I've not heard any suggestion of this in news reports but ..... is there
an army ** of lawyers chomping at the bit to file a class-action suit ?

** army probably isn't the collective noun for lawyers. Sewer pipe ?

2005\09\07@194152 by John Nall

picon face
M. Adam Davis wrote:

>I would like to clear this up right now:
>
>http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/Landsea/downward/
>  
>
But....check also http://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/~tk/glob_warm_hurr.html,
which says (quote):

> The strongest hurricanes in the present climate may be upstaged by
> even more intense hurricanes over the next century as the earth's
> climate is warmed by increasing levels of greenhouse gases in the
> atmosphere

So how in the ever-loving world did you "clear it up???"



>> PLEASE cite resources indicating that hurricane frequency OR intensity
>has gone up over the last century.
>
I don't believe we are discussing the last century.  Did I miss something?

>
>> Even the most ideology-driven bean-counter DID look at $131 millon on
>the one hand, and A STATISTICAL LIKELYHOOD of $200 billion on the
>other hand, and make a sensible (or so it seemed at the time) choice.
>  
>
Sensible to whom, pray tell????

>> 1) Yes, the response could have been better.  However it is not
>necessarily due to the current administration
>
It is.  A fish rots from the head down.

>3) Stem cell research.  We sunk billions into fusion when it was at
>the beginning of its research, and got nothing despite the revolution
>it *promised* us.  I say let the privately funded organizations and
>other countries have a crack at it.  Once it produces practical
>results the government will be all over it.  Until then, especially
>since there are unresolved ethical questions surrounding it, let's
>wait and see.
>  
>
Well, I agree that privately funded organizations and other countries
are actively pursuing it.  South Korea seems to be moving right along.  
So then it is OK to let other countries take the lead on scientific
research???  Perhaps it is, but seems to me that it is going to put us
way behind.  And I just happen to think that is bad.

>> Any extreme is generally bad.  The pendulum will swing the other way
>as it always does - just be patient.
>  
>
Ever see the cartoon of the two buzzards sitting on a tree, and one
saying to the other:  "Be patient hell!  I'm going out and kill
something!"  :-)

Anyway...we cannot solve the problems on the world on the piclist, and I
most certainly hope that no one feels personally attacked by anything
that I say -- it is definitely not meant that way.  I have a lot of
respect for all of you, whether you might have strange views of things
or not.

John

2005\09\07@220344 by Jim Korman

flavicon
face
Dave Tweed wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Just a wow number from my meteorology text

Make "M" equal 1 000 000, then the amount of
heat transfer across 40 deg latitude is about

  10MMM cal/day

And that is only the air, not counting the ocean currents!

Jim

2005\09\07@233434 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> If you really want flood insurance in Death Valley I am sure I can
> find someone to sell it to you, law or no law...

You'd be sorry :-)

       http://russell.servepics.com/temp/insureme.jpg      128 kB

I took that photo in 2003 as much for its amusement value as anything
else. But you can be fairly sure there's a reason for it :-)


       RM

2005\09\07@233434 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
>>> And fireproof undies in case of pyroclastic flow ? (see Pompeii
>>> for possible effects)
>>
>> Pyroclastic flow of any m,agnitude unlikely here. Unlikely :-). See
>> my copmments on Taupo for that! A wave travelling at near the speed
>> of sound and 1 km+ tall would be something to see. But you'd only
>> see it once.

> Right. You stay there, and keep a huge shovel handy.

> The flow did 4 miles in 4 minutes. Incidentally it also went out
> over the water where boats were caught by it and destroyed (this
> does not appear directly in this account). So water is not a
> solution. Is 4 minutes long enough to read what you need to read ?

> A recent tiny eruption of Mount St. Helens I think killed a few
> people and caused river diversions that took 5 years to fix using
> huge engineering works.

Points all taken.
I'm well enough aware of the relative risks :-)

Bear in mind that our field is, as I noted, about the same scale in 50
eruptions as Mt St Helens in 1. BUT the last one was half of that ;-).
There's been one attempt to get to me across water but it only got
perhaps 1/4 of the way and happened ?5,000? years before I got here.
And I'm off the field proper slightly. And the hot spot SEEMS to have
moved to the posh end of town many more miles away. And ....

But,. it's unlikely to happen.

We do have a Pompeii like village here. About 150 miles from me. It's
usually called "The buried village". (Te Wairoa???) Guess why :-(. Eye
witness accounts abound as it happened in ?1886?. Mount Tarawera.
Extremely spectacular. Near certain death at 4 miles. Google "pink and
white terraces" for some interesting stuff.



       RM





2005\09\07@235628 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
>>I would like to clear this up right now:

>>http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/Landsea/downward/

> But....check also http://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/~tk/glob_warm_hurr.html,
> which says (quote):

>> The strongest hurricanes in the present climate may be upstaged by
>> even more intense hurricanes over the next century as the earth's
>> climate is warmed by increasing levels of greenhouse gases in the
>> atmosphere

> So how in the ever-loving world did you "clear it up???"

He quoted measured data which demonstrated an (apparent) declining
trend.

You quoted people who looked at the future and said " ... may be ..."
:-)

Global Warming may indeed be happening.
If it is, the largest driver is probably natural (which doesn't make
it any less catastrophic).
GW may indeed be being added to significantly by what we are doing to
our environment. Or may not.

Somebody suggested a "wait and see" approach.
Alas, some predictions of GW affects, which cannot be lightly
dismissed, include bi-modal states which, once flipped, may take far
far far longer to flip back. One notable one is the "Atlantic
Conveyor" (not a UK container ship used to wage a distant war) which
is a deep current which carries warm water to the Northern Atlantic
and keeps eg the UK ice free when it otherwise wouldn't be. It is
believed by some reputable & competent scientists that small increases
in CO2 concentrations may cause this current to stop (actually
divert). Once triggered there is no way yet known to get it back. Get
it wrong and the North Atlantic freezes :-)

GW is indeed a pork barrel and a political football and a greenie
cause celebre and .... . BUT it *may* also be an awesome reality which
deserves any amount of effort to reverse. And it may not be. But
getting it wrong will cost you the curses of many future generations.


       RM


2005\09\08@000621 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> Just a wow number from my meteorology text
> Make "M" equal 1 000 000, then the amount of
> heat transfer across 40 deg latitude is about
>   10MMM cal/day
> And that is only the air, not counting the ocean currents!


Solar insolation / day is about 1.3 kWh/m^2 x disc area in m^2 x 24
hrs/day kWh
Excelises ...
About 3.7E12 megaWatt hours per day
Albedo sees some of that reflected back.
If we get 10% retained (low?) ...
Hmm - that's about 60 megawatt hours per person per day.

E&OE. Your assumptions may vary.
Do not staple, spindle fold or mutilate. YMMV
Either way, there's a lot of energy there.


       RM

2005\09\08@050214 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Russell,

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 15:49:42 +1200, Russell McMahon wrote:

> Solar insolation / day is about 1.3 kWh/m^2 x disc area in m^2 x 24 hrs/day kWh

Errr - hang on, that fails dimensional analysis!  You can't have kWh at both ends and also multipy by 24hrs...
Do you mean 1.3kW/m^2 ?  (and if so, I don't think anywhere on Earth gets this much for 24hrs/day :-)

> Albedo sees some of that reflected back.
> If we get 10% retained (low?) ...

According to Vengelis' musical number of the same name, the Earth's albedo is 0.39, so as a planet we get to
keep 61%.  Some of that will be lost by re-radiation of course, but by building collectors in a nice stylish
matt black the albedo of the collection system will be reduced, and keeping them cool we can collect more and
re-radiate less.

> Hmm - that's about 60 megawatt hours per person per day.

And it's "renewable".  There's just the old problem of collecting the energy where it's available and
transporting it to where it's needed.  And since most of our uses of the energy end up with it as heat, which
it was going to be anyway, we shouldn't upset things much by gathering it and using it for other things before
it turns back to heat.

> E&OE. Your assumptions may vary.
> Do not staple, spindle fold or mutilate. YMMV

I wouldn't dare!  :-)

> Either way, there's a lot of energy there.

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\09\08@050357 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 10:37:08 +1200, Jinx wrote:

>
> I've not heard any suggestion of this in news reports but ..... is there
> an army ** of lawyers chomping at the bit to file a class-action suit ?
>
> ** army probably isn't the collective noun for lawyers. Sewer pipe ?

Trough?  :-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\09\08@054712 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
>> Solar insolation / day is about 1.3 kWh/m^2 x disc area in m^2 x 24
>> hrs/day kWh

> Errr - hang on, that fails dimensional analysis!  You can't have kWh
> at both ends and also multipy by 24hrs...
> Do you mean 1.3kW/m^2 ?

Well, I was being sloppy - I meant 1.3 kWh/h/m^2, which of course is
1.3 kW, but one is power and the other energy :-).

> ... and if so, I don't think anywhere on Earth gets this much for
> 24hrs/day :-).

Oh, it does.
It's falls on projected stationary earth sized disc I used in my
calculation.
Peak solar insolation in 1.3 kW/m^2 more or less.
The sun always shines on somewhere on earth.
And the sun "sees" a disk of an area equal to the projected circular
outline of the earth. It doesn't care that there's a turning planet
inside the projection. Some of that will have very long atmospheric
paths (near the poles) and some a short path (neat the equator) but
the sun doesn't care - it just throws its 1.3 kW/m^2 onto the disk.
End result is as I said, more or less.

> And it's "renewable".  There's just the old problem of collecting
> the energy where it's available and
> transporting it to where it's needed.

A lot is already used where it's needed. makes plants growm pumps
surface water back into the sky, drives the wind , waves, ... (apart
form the aforesaid parts which are driven by the earth's rotation
:-) ), and much more. But there's plenty 'left over' for other things.
We just haven't got the technology fully sorted yet.



       RM

2005\09\08@064009 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
>> Are we going for the Group Darwin award ?

> Will the first alien signal intercepted by SETI be part of an
> intergalactic
> "Darwin Awards"?

Only if we answer it :-)
Sssssh!!!! QUIET everyone.


       RM

2005\09\08@065703 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Russell,

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 21:46:50 +1200, Russell McMahon wrote:

> >> Solar insolation / day is about 1.3 kWh/m^2 x disc area in m^2 x 24
> >> hrs/day kWh
>
> > Errr - hang on, that fails dimensional analysis!  You can't have kWh
> > at both ends and also multipy by 24hrs...
> > Do you mean 1.3kW/m^2 ?
>
> Well, I was being sloppy - I meant 1.3 kWh/h/m^2, which of course is
> 1.3 kW, but one is power and the other energy :-).

OK, sorted!

> > ... and if so, I don't think anywhere on Earth gets this much for
> > 24hrs/day :-).
>
> Oh, it does.
> It's falls on projected stationary earth sized disc I used in my
> calculation.

Right, but where would you build this - and if we towed it behind the Earth, how would we connect the power
cable?  :-)

I was thinking more practically, less theoretically...

And to finish on a pedantic note: "Solar insolation" is a tautology!  :-)))

Cheers,



Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\09\08@075809 by John Nall

picon face
In light of this discussion, especially the question that was raised
about what other disasters might be waiting in the wings, here is an
interesting quote from a story in today's Los Angeles Times:

> U.S. Geological Survey seismologist Lucy Jones remembers attending an
> emergency training session in August 2001 with the Federal Emergency
> Management Agency that discussed the three most likely catastrophes to
> strike the United States.
>
> First on the list was a terrorist attack in New York. Second was a
> super-strength hurricane hitting New Orleans. Third was a major
> earthquake on the San Andreas fault.

Note that the meeting she refers to pre-dates 9/11.  So two down, one to
go, huh??

John

2005\09\08@080815 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Russell McMahon wrote:

>> If you really want flood insurance in Death Valley I am sure I can
>> find someone to sell it to you, law or no law...
>
> You'd be sorry :-)
>
>         http://russell.servepics.com/temp/insureme.jpg      128 kB

You don't want to be caught by a rush flood in the desert. It's one of the
things to know before you go offroad there. OTOH, the places where it
happens are pretty limited.

Gerhard

2005\09\08@082701 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
M. Adam Davis wrote:

>> Journal, which is hardly a shill for left-wing politicians, estimates
>> the damages at $200 billion.  Even the most ideology-driven bean-counter
>> should be able to look at $131 millon on the one hand, and $200 billion
>> on the other hand, and make a sensible choice.  
>
> Even the most ideology-driven bean-counter DID look at $131 millon on
> the one hand, and A STATISTICAL LIKELYHOOD of $200 billion on the
> other hand, and make a sensible (or so it seemed at the time) choice.

A problem arises when you look at something like this with a "quarterly
mind". Even a relatively low likelihood of, say, 1%/year adds up to
something in the neighborhood of 50%/50 years. The whole thing only starts
to make sense when you look at it with a perspective of 50 or 100 years.
And that's something that most administrations are simply not capable of --
given election cycles of 4 or 6 years or so. And neither are private
enterprises.

There is probably no government in this world (or has ever been) that can
be accused of making decisions based on relevant facts. (I mean relevant to
the question at hand, not to the next election...)

Gerhard

2005\09\08@100135 by John Ferrell

face picon face
An interesting development you will not likely see on the news:
Local unconfirmed story...A local tour company, Holiday Tours of Level Cross
NC sent 8 of their buses to help with the evacuation. Two have been totally
destroyed by people who have no intention of leaving.

The Louisiana population in general have a reputation for being very tough
in all dimensions. In this instance, I agree with them. The statement that I
am hearing from them is send us help not more trouble. I believe they will
learn from the experience but they will not allow themselves to be removed
from their City.

I am inclined to agree with them. Abandoning ship is not necessary. Salvage
is a better option than demolition.

Let those who remain choose the best course of action.

John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2005\09\08@115043 by R. I. Nelson

picon face
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On one of the news shows one congressman (I forget which one)  Said it
nicely.  I forget the exact words but it was basically If they have the
means and remain peaceful let them stay.  But do NOT support them with
FREE food, water and medical aid.  T

This town is going to be DEAD for about a year someone said EXCEPT for
cleanup crews. there will be NO JOBS.


Hear is an interesting thought:  if the city is totally evacuated,  That
means no citizens or tax income so basically it is no longer a city so
what is the city government governing  so there is no need for a mayor


John Ferrell wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}
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2005\09\08@115213 by Peter

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On Wed, 7 Sep 2005, James Newtons Massmind wrote:

>>> Maybe nearly all of nature will survive such a change. But will a
>>> certain primate be still part of that surviving nature?
>>
>> Are we going for the Group Darwin award ?
>
> Will the first alien signal intercepted by SETI be part of an intergalactic
> "Darwin Awards"?

It depends whether we answer and/or whether they hear us first.

Peter

2005\09\08@120425 by Howard Winter

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Olin,

On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 14:40:48 -0400, Olin Lathrop wrote:

> Howard Winter wrote:
> > The wind direction is affected by the rotation of
> > the Earth (Coriolis effect) but the presence and strength of the wind
> > isn't.
>
> I don't think it's that clear.  If one side of the planet always faced the
> sun, would there be much wind?  I think probably a lot less.  

Winds would there, but very different!  If the Earth was a smooth, homogeneous solid sphere, the point closest
(with the best aspect) to the Sun would be heated most, and would heat the air above it, with decreasing
heating in all directions away from this perihelion point.  The hotter air would rise, to be replaced by
cooler air flowing in from all sides, which on the surface would be felt as wind.  Convection would then set
in, with "ring doughnut" shaped flow which would settle at steady speeds when all the temperatures had
stabilised.

However, apart from rotating, the Earth is far from a smooth homogeneous solid sphere - it's covered with
(mostly) water, and land which varies in colour, material, and altitude.  All of these things mean that the
heating of the surface, and of the air above it, is very uneven, and thus winds of all sorts are created for
various reasons.  Fohn, Chinook and Mistrale winds, for example, are all created by particular surface
profiles (mountains, mainly!).  On-shore and off-shore breezes are due to the different heating properties of
water and land.  If rotation was the main cause of wind, the poles would be almost calm, but I understand the
Antarctic regularly records wind speeds of 200mph.

> Also think of
> the trade winds and other wind belts which blow predominantly in a east or
> west direction.  
> It sounds quite plausible that both the strength and
> presence (really the same thing since presence is strength not = 0) of this
> wind are directly related to the earth's rotation.  It's not so clear that
> the power behind the wind comes from that, and most of it probably doesn't,
> but I don't think it can be dismissed so easily.

Actually the Trade Winds start blowing North and South, caused by the convection I mentioned above, and are
turned East and West by the Coriolis effect - the winds describe curved paths away from the equator.  I accept
that the direction is caused by Earth-spin, but the presence and speed is down to solar heating.

{Quote hidden}

No!!!  While tidal effects caused by the Sun's gravity can be said to be because of the Earth's rotation (and
thus the apparent movement of the Sun), the major cause of tides is the Moon, as can be seen during a Neap
tide, when the Moon and Sun are at rightangles in relation to us, the high tide is below the Moon.  The Moon
of course orbits us on its own with no reference to the Earth's rotation.  If tides were all due to the
Earth's rotation/Sun, there would be tides at the same time each day, some time after noon (to account for the
lag caused by friction and inertia) and 12 hours later.  But tides are much more complex, and are affected to
some extent by the rest of the Solar System - to get even reasonably accurate prediction/modelling of tides
you have to take account of the Moon, Sun, Mars, Venus, and Jupiter at least, otherwise the reality soon
wanders away from the prediction/model.

> Think of the reverse.  Let's say you make a float that goes up and down on
> the ocean surface due to the tides, then hook it up to a generator to
> extract power from that up and down motion.  Explain where that power comes
> from if not from the kinetic energy stored in the rotating mass of the
> planet?

It comes from the potential energy of the water being pulled towards the various celestial bodies, so forming
a higher column as water flows in from surrounding areas, and then lowering again as the external influence
"moves away".  In one way it's similar to a "storm surge", where an area of low air pressure inside (say) a
hurricane causes a hump in the water below it, but in this case the extra upwards force comes from added
gravity above, rather than reduced air pressure.

> By extracting the power from the float, you are making the planet slow down ever so slightly.

Well you are extracting the power from the water, which depending on the direction of flow towards your
collection point may in fact cause pro-spin friction between water and Earth, so having the opposite effect!  
The Americas form quite a barrier to water trying not to flow with the Earth's rotation due to its inertia, so
the water "piles up" against the East coast, "pushing" against the coast so tending to slow down the rotation,
so if you extracted energy all down the coast, there would be less "push" so less tendency to slow.

(I'm fairly confident in most of the above, but less so in this last paragraph! :-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\09\08@184309 by Jinx

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> Let those who remain choose the best course of action.

Looking at the toxic sludge they're surrounded by, I hope
they've had their jabs and have access to biohazard suits.
They're in an unenviable position. I understand why they
want to stay, but what's to come later - cholera, hepC,
typhoid ? The whole city is covered in sewage with dead
bodies all over the place. Draining isn't going to make it
clean


2005\09\08@190043 by Howard Winter

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Jinx,

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 10:43:04 +1200, Jinx wrote:

> > Let those who remain choose the best course of action.
>
> Looking at the toxic sludge they're surrounded by, I hope
> they've had their jabs and have access to biohazard suits.

I heard today that five people are known to have died from contaminated water, cuts and grazes letting the
nasty stuff get in, apparently.  I certainly wouldn't want to go wading about in it.

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\09\08@233617 by Dmitriy Kiryashov

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It would be interesting perhaps to see the list
of other people attended that training as well... :)


John Nall wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2005\09\09@004233 by Dmitriy Kiryashov

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James how would you help to sort out in the youngs mind
the "facts and knowledge" teached at school from "state
propaganda" ? :) Other side : an absolute knwoledge without
thremendous self displine ( what is good and what is bad )
is absolutely dangerous :)

Most of current societies are purely driven by money not
by human relations or knowledge about things in balance.
Simple example - look what "civilized people" eat or how
human life is being estimated on day to day in money value.

About the school. I would certainly suggest to teach young
folks also about the logic ( as pure science to observe and
conclude the relationships between the changing known )
and theory of positive and negative feedbacks :)

One of the difficult thing is to stop the wars and disaster
in the heads of people is to teach your children being patient
to differences, to each other and teach to act calmly, smartly
and cooperatevly in hostile situations, respect others and
yourself. Here comes the bible :) And children their children...
Once family preemptivity concept was successfully broken here
in us it is not going to happen the old ways but other ways
might also exist.

This all great in theory thought... In practical life respect
being replaced with polit correctness. Nor things being recti-
fied but money ruled again.

Another difficult part is not allowing money to dictate,
i.e. living creatures are greater value and money is a tool
helping and obeying  people, not an ambicious ruling and
deciding artificial creature by itself.


James Newtons Massmind wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2005\09\09@050952 by Nate Duehr

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On Sun, Sep 04, 2005 at 04:43:34PM -0500, R. I. Nelson wrote:
> They have been saying for who knows how many years that when the big
> hurricane hits this was Going to happen.  Well it finally happened.  I
> say if any one is to blame it is the STATE OF LOUISIANA Government for
> allowing it to get to this point and they are TOTALLY at fault for not
> being prepared to handle it.

Worse.  They were prepared and didn't follow their own evacuation plans.

The plan stated that they knew there are a lot of poor people in the
city, and that city school busses would be pressed into evacuation
service should a mandatory evacuation be declared.

A press pool photographer captured the busses all sitting submerged
around Day 5 or so, but I've lost the URL since then.

--
Nate Duehr <RemoveMEnatespamspamBeGonenatetech.com>

2005\09\09@052027 by Jinx

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> A press pool photographer captured the busses all sitting
> submerged around Day 5 or so, but I've lost the URL since
> then

Rows and rows of soggy buses - it was appalling. Somebody
really deserves to have a can of whoop-ass opened on them for
not moving that valuable transport to higher ground



2005\09\09@052118 by Nate Duehr

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On Mon, Sep 05, 2005 at 09:56:46AM -0400, John Ferrell wrote:
> That approach may appeal to the voters but costs in credibility with those
> you scold.
> John Ferrell
> http://DixieNC.US

Sounds very intelligent and all but I fail to see how a Mayor with 80%
of a major city underwater has any kind of credibility problem in the
eyes of would-be rescuers.  It's a nice moral thought, to say he
shouldn't have scolded anyone, but it really doesn't apply to how the
professionals at the other end of the scolding are expected to perform
in a disaster scenario.

That guy is the first Mayor they've had in a long time that:
a) Tells it like it is.
b) Left a $550 thousand dollar a year job at Cox Communications to Mayor
his city because he wanted to.
c) Isn't leaving a trail of assistants and worker-bees going to jail for
fraud behind him.  (The last Mayor and pretty much every Mayor of New
Orleans have that legacy.)

If the voters re-elect him, they're probably not making a bad choice.

--
Nate Duehr <spamBeGonenateKILLspamspam@spam@natetech.com>

2005\09\09@052233 by Nate Duehr

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On Thu, Sep 08, 2005 at 10:50:39AM -0500, R. I. Nelson wrote:
> On one of the news shows one congressman (I forget which one)  Said it
> nicely.  I forget the exact words but it was basically If they have the
> means and remain peaceful let them stay.  But do NOT support them with
> FREE food, water and medical aid.  T

Yeah, he made that speech while people were still trapped in attics too.

Bad timing.

--
Nate Duehr <natespam_OUTspam@spam@natetech.com>

2005\09\09@072621 by Gerhard Fiedler

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Dmitriy Kiryashov wrote:

> Another difficult part is not allowing money to dictate, i.e. living
> creatures are greater value and money is a tool helping and obeying
> people, not an ambicious ruling and deciding artificial creature by
> itself.

Money never dictates... every decision that appears to be "made by money"
is made by people, with various motives, which are usually much more
complex (and individual) than they appear when looking at it from far away.

Gerhard

2005\09\09@140658 by James Newtons Massmind

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Dmitriy Kiryashov 2005 Sep 08, Thu 13:29

> James how would you help to sort out in the young's mind the
> "facts and knowledge" teached at school from "state
> propaganda" ? :) Other side : an absolute knwoledge without
> thremendous self displine ( what is good and what is bad ) is
> absolutely dangerous :)

I admit that is a challenge with probably no single good solution. More
involvement on the part of the parents is one answer. Money from government
but teachers and syllabus from the community is another. The people need to
pay (taxes) directly to local schools and keep the federal government out of
it. Decentralized with maybe minimum requirements only from the feds.

I decided a long time ago that most parents in the USA don't ACTUALLY care
about their kids. They want little Johnny GONE for x hours per day so they
can go to work and earn money for that new SUV. Sad but true. If it were
otherwise, the bills for school funding would PASS on the ballot and they
don't. Look it up. Look at the percentage of voters with kids. If they
cared, the schools would be funded. They aren't. They don't. Period.

Sad huh?

> Most of current societies are purely driven by money not by
> human relations or knowledge about things in balance.
> Simple example - look what "civilized people" eat or how
> human life is being estimated on day to day in money value.

That is the sad, but not changeable, truth. In the end, you have more people
in the world who care about themselves, their own power and money than about
anything else. There are very few people who are actually "nice" and who
really care about others. (Mark Twain says NO ONE does). In a world of nice
people, all these wonderful things like socialism, responsible business, and
so on will work just perfectly.

But when you have not nice people, they fail. People take advantage of
others and destroy the cooperation those systems require. So what do you do?
Kill all the not nice people?

One way is to come up with a system that runs on money and rewards
transactions that leave both sides happy. That is the goal of capitalism. It
is NOT ideal, but is an ideal response to the sad reality of life. So people
are money, food is money, everything is money. And as long as both sides are
happy, even if one side is happy only because it doesn't know were its food
came from
http://www.themeatrix.com , or how likely it is to get killed tomorrow
http://www.massmind.org/techref/other/911.htm , then the system works.

> About the school. I would certainly suggest to teach young
> folks also about the logic ( as pure science to observe and
> conclude the relationships between the changing known ) and
> theory of positive and negative feedbacks :)

Critical thinking is the best class I ever took.
http://www.massmind.org/techref/other/spins.htm (the link on Advertisements
is worth reading)

> One of the difficult thing is to stop the wars and disaster
> in the heads of people is to teach your children being
> patient to differences, to each other and teach to act
> calmly, smartly and cooperatevly in hostile situations,
> respect others and yourself. Here comes the bible :) And
> children their children...

- The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
- Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
- Acceptance of one another...
http://www.uua.org/aboutuua/principles.html

> Once family preemptivity concept was successfully broken here
> in us it is not going to happen the old ways but other ways
> might also exist.

We home school
http://www.homeschool.com/ Preempt that! (not that they haven't tried)

> This all great in theory thought... In practical life respect
> being replaced with polit correctness. Nor things being
> recti- fied but money ruled again.
>
> Another difficult part is not allowing money to dictate, i.e.
> living creatures are greater value and money is a tool
> helping and obeying  people, not an ambicious ruling and
> deciding artificial creature by itself.

Again, in a world of "nice" people, this all works perfectly. We don't live
in that world. What do with do with the "not nice" people? Only allow them
to have the power and glory they seek when they ACT nice to others. So only
when others are happy with them. So only when others buy what they sell,
over and over again. So if you don't think the oil companies are nice, find
a way to stop buying oil.
http://www.massmind.org/techref/other/homes.htm

If you don't think the cigarette companies are nice, find a way to stop
smoking. Did you know what really hurt Phillip Morris? It was when some
health maintenance organizations (who make more money when their members
stay healthy) realized that lung cancer was killing members, and the members
were getting pissed about the HMOs not treating them, so it was eating in to
their profits. They decided to spend some money ADVERTIZING about how bad
smoking is. This is were the bulletin boards, TV spots, and so on came from.
That one about how the husband killed his wife with second hand smoke or the
lady smoking through the hole in her neck really made the difference. They
countered with "Joe Camel" to try and get the kids who were to dumb to care
about what might happen to them when they got "old" and it pissed people off
enough that we forced them to stop. I don't think the parents really cared
except for the smell. Just me. I'm becoming very cynical

Now they sell outside the USA and we don't care enough to stop it.

We aren't very nice people.

Try not to think about it
http://www.massmind.org/techref/other/stories/ta.htm

---
James Newton, massmind.org Knowledge Archiver
spamBeGonejames@spam@spammassmind.org 1-619-652-0593 fax:1-208-279-8767
All the engineering secrets worth knowing:
http://techref.massmind.org What do YOU know?


2005\09\09@230522 by Dmitriy Kiryashov

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Unfortunately they do.. :)

Otherwise it is very difficult to explain certain
people decisions to lie and cheat on others to gain
maximum profit from that. Money control most of the
people not vise versa.



Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
> > Another difficult part is not allowing money to dictate, i.e. living
> > creatures are greater value and money is a tool helping and obeying
> > people, not an ambicious ruling and deciding artificial creature by
> > itself.
>
> Money never dictates... every decision that appears to be "made by money"
> is made by people, with various motives, which are usually much more
> complex (and individual) than they appear when looking at it from far away.
>
> Gerhard

2005\09\09@233726 by Dmitriy Kiryashov

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Hi James.

> But when you have not nice people, they fail. People take advantage of
> others and destroy the cooperation those systems require.
> So what do you do? Kill all the not nice people?

Unfortunately that will turn good person into bad person so nothing will
change at the end... :) Killing never win the battle but ideology does.

Most practical approach I was convinced with ( by reading old teacher
thoughts on your site ) is to speak to your children _always_ what is
good, what is bad, help them to stay away from specific brainwashing
and keep the personality for themselves and others. Otherwise once
you got into the machine and believed it it will crunch you.
(the wall comes in mind :)

Somebody supposed to keep souls of people on earth while population
of biorobots are experiencing the geometrical progression. :)

Another question is: The number of good people is substantially
larger than the number of bad people but why it looks that bad
people are better teamed and organized ? :)


WBR Dmitry.

2005\09\10@081456 by Gerhard Fiedler

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Dmitriy Kiryashov wrote:

>> Money never dictates... every decision that appears to be "made by
>> money" is made by people, with various motives, which are usually much
>> more complex (and individual) than they appear when looking at it from
>> far away.

> Money control most of the people not vise versa.

I think when you look close enough, you'll find that it isn't money. It is
about attempts to feel powerful and in control, increase self-esteem,
cuddle the ego, feeling desirable, prove that they "can make it" and so on.
Money is a big placeholder...

> Otherwise it is very difficult to explain certain people decisions to lie
> and cheat on others to gain maximum profit from that.

Not really difficult. Just look close enough. Which of course is usually
not possible if you don't know that person personally yet know something
about their decisions (like it is with politicians and other celebrities).

Gerhard

2005\09\10@175018 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Sep 10, 2005, at 5:14 AM, Gerhard Fiedler wrote:

> I think when you look close enough, you'll find that it isn't money.
> It is
> about attempts to feel powerful and in control, increase self-esteem,
> cuddle the ego, feeling desirable, prove that they "can make it" and
> so on.
> Money is a big placeholder...
>
Yes.  Money would also be a placeholder for the less "negative" goals
in life - comfort, security, self worth, providing for your family, etc.
Pursuit of money at the sacrifice of other important values is bad; if
you don't sacrifice other values, money is just a measurement tool.  I
have very little faith indeed in philosophies that equate mere poverty
with "goodness."

Like ANY other value, chasing money out of balance with other values is
harmful, but it's not really a harmful value on its own!

Bill "Damnit, being rich doesn't mean I'm evil" W

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