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'[OT]Grrr selection criteria'
2009\04\08@194237 by cdb

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Ok, I find most selection criteria irksome to say the least.

University of Queensland have this criteria to be addressed under
'Personal Qualities'

'Good level of written and oral communication skills.'

Apart from the fact they seem to have overlooked that they are asking
for oral abilities to be conveyed in a written document (morons
playing with their oxen methinks), they are of course wanting me to be
guilty of self agrandissement.

My reply will instantly annoy them, and so will probably preclude me
being offered an interview on that point alone, though they will have
to work through my responses to do I know how to operate a screwdriver
safely and switch mains equipment on before getting to this point.

My response:

' My oral communication skills can only be ascertained by those
verbally communicating with me or by aural means.'

I think I have managed to convey not only my writing and comprehension
skills but also my opinion of their question in a succinct manner,
also using a concocted and stilted up yours superiority complex
attitude.

Obstinate, pig headed, arrogant, principled, hmm what else should I
add as my personal traits?

Colin

PS. Surprise, my spilling checker doesn't like French words.
--
cdb,  on 9/04/2009



2009\04\08@195519 by M. Adam Davis

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Why don't you write about experiences you've had that demonstrate good
level of oral skills?  Talks and presentations you've given, how
you've  explained technical aspects to a layperson in the past, how
you've presented your ideas in an objective way to come to a
conclusion on a design problem...

I understand you may be frustrated by the requirements, but isn't it
obvious enough what they really expect that you can ignore the manner
in which they phrased the question?

Methinks the test is very good at testing general communication
patterns, and those same patterns often do affect both written and
spoken communications...

-Adam

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 7:42 PM, cdb <spam_OUTcolinTakeThisOuTspambtech-online.co.uk> wrote:
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>

2009\04\08@210904 by Benjamin Grant

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"they are of course wanting me to be
guilty of self agrandissement"

I mean everyone wants this starting from undergraduate college to applying
to be a professor... those are the rules of the game and sometimes you just
gotta play by them

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 7:55 PM, M. Adam Davis <.....stienmanKILLspamspam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:

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2009\04\08@215432 by cdb

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:: mean everyone wants this starting from undergraduate college to
:: applying
:: to be a professor... those are the rules of the game and sometimes
:: you just
:: gotta play by them

Then in that case it is pointless having principles or attempting to
have integrity.

Fortunately I believe my principles should only hinder and hurt me,
not others, I was as the Scandinavians would say, dragged up with
obviously a different viewpoint and set of standards than others.

I have no truc with people who tell me what a wonderful person they
are on meeting them.  The other point is that if the interviewers were
actually skillful at their job, they would be able to ascertain the
traits they need by careful questioning and listening to the answers
given in conversational fashion.

Many moons ago in another life, this was the method I was initiated
into and used.

I recently had an interviewer who considered my refusing extra pay to
make up for a safety concern that I had, strange, and even stranger
that I left the company because of that point. I was amazed that he
thought that I should be open to being 'bought off', when the company
admitted my point was valid.

Colin
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2009\04\08@220009 by Benjamin Grant

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having principles and integrity is certainly helpful in general. I don't
like writing about myself in such an arrogant fashion either but you're not
hurting anyone by not playing the game but yourself. I've had interviews
ranging from University of Pittsburgh to Harvard and MIT the last 3 months
and the game doesn't change from school to school. And it's not so much the
interviewers are incompetent, but rather a combination of two factors (1)
they want it to be easy for them (2) for competitive positions everyone
honestly does meet the criterion they're looking for so they have to base
the decision on something - and I completely agree its rather arbitrary in
many cases.

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 9:54 PM, cdb <EraseMEcolinspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTbtech-online.co.uk> wrote:

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> -

2009\04\08@225341 by Raymond Hurst

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It always irks me that the document asking for all that stuff has
misspelled words or bad sentence structure.

--
Ray Hurst
949-202-6037

2009\04\08@225945 by Benjamin Grant

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hahahaha agreed. So obnoxious.  Or if you're late it's like game over, but
the interviewer comes like 10 minutes late half the time. On a similar
topic, today at Duke I saw a sign advertising for a paid research study
"looking for African-American students for a paid research studies". Sweet.

2009\04\09@003211 by William \Chops\ Westfield

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On Apr 8, 2009, at 4:42 PM, cdb wrote:

> Obstinate, pig headed, arrogant, principled, hmm what else should I  
> add as my personal traits?

Contentious, argumentative, finicky, so exacting as to be incapable of  
making a reasonable interpretation of obvious requirements/questions,  
intellectually bigoted, fanatically principled, dismissive of  
dissenting opinions...

Seriously.  About 70% of your complaints about job postings have been  
genuinely amusing, and about 50% have made me glad that I'm not likely  
to ever be interviewing you as a potential candidate (yes, there is  
overlap.)

BillW

2009\04\09@010208 by cdb

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:: dismissive of dissenting opinions...

I would mildy dissent from that opinion. My experience shows that too
many people tend to have an opinion that they have not arrived at
through their own reasoning, but because it is the 'in thing' to have
a stated opinion. There are many topics that cannot be discussed here
where I'm aware my views are so off the planet that I accept that mine
is a minority view and rarely proffer my thoughts.

In reality I suppose I'm 99% misanthropic in my personal life.

Colin
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cdb, @spam@colinKILLspamspambtech-online.co.uk on 9/04/2009

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2009\04\09@083945 by Tony Smith

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> Ok, I find most selection criteria irksome to say the least.
>
> University of Queensland have this criteria to be addressed under
> 'Personal Qualities'
>
> 'Good level of written and oral communication skills.'


Yeah well, you have to weed out the yoof & stutterers.

Actually, that should be "y-y-yeah w-w-well, l-l-l-like um, y-y-you have to
l-l-like, w-w-weed out t-t-the um l-l-like y-y-y-yoof & s-s-s-stutterers,
y-y-'know, l-l-l-like y-y-yeah and s-s-s-stuff.

Stutterers are happy to weed themselves out, yoof, well, like maybe.

Usually they just call it presentation skills (which has two meanings).
It's just generic HR BS anyway.

Tony

2009\04\09@125257 by Vitaliy

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William "Chops" Westfield wrote:
> Seriously.  About 70% of your complaints about job postings have been  
> genuinely amusing, and about 50% have made me glad that I'm not likely  
> to ever be interviewing you as a potential candidate (yes, there is  
> overlap.)

I got the same impression.


2009\04\09@144221 by Gerhard Fiedler

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Benjamin Grant wrote:

> Or if you're late it's like game over, but the interviewer comes like
> 10 minutes late half the time.

That's just market forces at play. If you have enough offers, you can
close the door at the exact time, and it's game over for them.

It all depends on what you want, compared to what you get (or what you
can get, and what you have to do to get it).

Maybe a decent job in a company with a moronic HR department is better
than a crappy job in a company with an outstanding HR department. Maybe
by putting the weight you seem to put on how a company presents itself
through its HR department you limit your choices unnecessarily, and let
some good opportunities pass by.

Gerhard

2009\04\09@150835 by John Day

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At 02:42 PM 4/9/2009, Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
>Benjamin Grant wrote:
>
> > Or if you're late it's like game over, but the interviewer comes like
> > 10 minutes late half the time.
>
>That's just market forces at play. If you have enough offers, you can
>close the door at the exact time, and it's game over for them.
>
>It all depends on what you want, compared to what you get (or what you
>can get, and what you have to do to get it).
>
>Maybe a decent job in a company with a moronic HR department is better
>than a crappy job in a company with an outstanding HR department. Maybe
>by putting the weight you seem to put on how a company presents itself
>through its HR department you limit your choices unnecessarily, and let
>some good opportunities pass by.
>
>Gerhard

Well, if you get an interview where I work the very first person to
see you will be HR.  The other FIVE or so you will see (if you apply
for an engineering type position) will all be from other departments,
they may have to come from meetings, or remote parts of a building.
They may even call in others if they discover you have some talent
that may be of specific interest to others.

Not always possible to do within your 10 minute time limit, but heck,
it's your funeral! Right now there does, for some weird reason, seem
to be a pretty good pool of available talent.

John

2009\04\09@151547 by Benjamin Grant

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yeah I'm sorry if I personally sounded as though I'm disgusted or disagree
with it - I mean I understand the system and don't contest it. Just saying I
can understand why OP feels irritated at times, but all and all you have to
play the game. And definitely interviewers have a lot of stuff going on and
I understand that it's just a stressful position to be on the otherside I
suppose, not to say anyone else is to blame.

On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 3:09 PM, John Day <KILLspamjohn.dayKILLspamspamsiliconrailway.com>wrote:

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