Post by thread:[PIC]: question about 18F452

Hi, I got some PIC 18F452's today, and having never used the 18 series parts I have a couple of questions; 1. Does anyone know if PicStart Plus with 2.3 firmware and MPLAB 5.3 will program the 18F452? I'm just about to install the PicStart 2.3 firmware, but the help file that comes with it is sketchy on the 18F parts. 2. Is it worth learning the 18F instruction set? I know the main use of these chips is for larger projects which suit a higher level language, but i'm more interested in having the extra processing power especially once the 18 and 8 pin 18F chips are obtainable. Any other tips etc are appreciated. :o) -Roman -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList spam_OUTpiclist-unsubscribe-requestTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu

> 1. Does anyone know if PicStart Plus with 2.3 firmware > and MPLAB 5.3 will program the 18F452? > I'm just about to install the PicStart 2.3 firmware, > but the help file that comes with it is sketchy on the > 18F parts. Dunno about 2.3, but I installed 3.00 (at least that is what I see flashing on my screen when MPLAB contacts the PS+), and with that all the 18F's are listed and I programmed at least one (then I switched to my own programmer now that it is working for 18f's). > 2. Is it worth learning the 18F instruction set? I know > the main use of these chips is for larger projects which > suit a higher level language, but i'm more interested > in having the extra processing power especially once the > 18 and 8 pin 18F chips are obtainable. I guess you can achieve better code density and speed by using the specific instructions, for instance conditional branch instead of skip+goto. But even using them as 16f's (ignore the extra instructions) I find the 18f's good value for money (more code, more data, more peripherals, 10 MIPS from a 10 MHz xtal with the *4 PLL). Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList .....piclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu

>2. Is it worth learning the 18F instruction set? I know >the main use of these chips is for larger projects which >suit a higher level language, but i'm more interested >in having the extra processing power especially once the >18 and 8 pin 18F chips are obtainable. A high level language do a lot of things behind your back, is less efficient, waste a lot of program memory, I also found some compiler bugs... I think mpasm is more suitable to 18F than a C compiler. Regards, Carlos -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList piclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspammitvma.mit.edu

Roman wrote... >2. Is it worth learning the 18F instruction set? I know >the main use of these chips is for larger projects which >suit a higher level language, but i'm more interested >in having the extra processing power especially once the >18 and 8 pin 18F chips are obtainable. Well worth the small effort, in my opinion. It may well be that the 18F series were intended for larger projects and to be more compiler-friendly; but I'm finding the 18F is more assembler-friendly as well: no more ROM paging; three independent FSR's/INDF's; auto increment/decrement available on the FSR's; hardware multiply; table lookups in hardware; common-sense branch instructions; and lots more RAM. I'm well along with my first big 18F452 project, and my impression is it's much, MUCH easier to work with than the PIC16 parts I've been used to. Most of what I do is low-volume, high-ticket stuff in which development cost ends up being a significant part of the product piece cost; and I expect the 18F will give me big savings. Every programming task just seems a lot more straightforward than with the 16's- which in my mind makes them more hobbyist-friendly, too. >Any other tips etc are appreciated. :o) Get Microchip's ICD2. It works nice, and if it ever does stop working, the round package allows it to do double-duty as a hockey puck. DD -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList .....piclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspam.....mitvma.mit.edu

Roman: I don't want to disapoint you but first of all, the 8 pin 18F devices are out of schedule since a couple of months now. I was looking for the 18 pin devices too (18F1230 and 1330 if I'm not wrong), but these devices disapeared from the site too, what makes me think they aren't going to be produced anymore ... :-( 1- If your hardware didn't work with 18F, know that any freeware programmer supported by IC-PROG will. Bonny Gjizen done a good work to support these chips. I use it with a JDM programmer and programmed many 18F devices (mainly 452 and 252 devices). We are also finishing support to the "new" 12F675 too. 2- Learning the instruction set is always worth (hehe). Even if you use a high level language ( I use PCWH from CCS) you will always have to take a look at the code and maybe do some fine tunning by yourself. I also needed to include some ASM in the source code so, knowing the instruction set is a MUST. 3- I disagree with you about the use in more complex projects ... With that price strategy, it looks like Mchip is trying to take the 16F876 and 877 place's with the 18F252 and 452, as they cost almost the same and the 18F have MANY more functions (5 times more RAM, 2 times more ROM, 4 timers, etc). Best regards, Fabio Pereira JOINVILLE - SC - BRASIL {Original Message removed}

> Hi, I got some PIC 18F452's today, and having never > used the 18 series parts I have a couple of questions; > > 1. Does anyone know if PicStart Plus with 2.3 firmware > and MPLAB 5.3 will program the 18F452? > I'm just about to install the PicStart 2.3 firmware, > but the help file that comes with it is sketchy on the > 18F parts. I think you need firmware v3.0 for the PS+ > 2. Is it worth learning the 18F instruction set? I know > the main use of these chips is for larger projects which > suit a higher level language, but i'm more interested > in having the extra processing power especially once the > 18 and 8 pin 18F chips are obtainable. Of course its worth learning! btw: mChip decommitted the 8 pin 18F chips, IIRC. > Any other tips etc are appreciated. :o) > -Roman Bob Ammerman RAm Systems -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList EraseMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestspam_OUTTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu

> I don't want to disapoint you but first of all, the 8 pin 18F devices are > out of schedule since a couple of months now. I was looking for the 18 pin > devices too (18F1230 and 1330 if I'm not wrong), but these devices > disapeared from the site too, what makes me think they aren't going to be > produced anymore ... :-( Right, they were officially cancelled about 6 months ago if I remember right. ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList piclist-unsubscribe-requestspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu

> 1. Does anyone know if PicStart Plus with 2.3 firmware > and MPLAB 5.3 will program the 18F452? > I'm just about to install the PicStart 2.3 firmware, > but the help file that comes with it is sketchy on the > 18F parts. In addition to needing f/w ver. 3.0 (as I've seen many have already responded), I believe you also need MPLAB 5.62+. Look at the readme files for MPLAB and PICSTART Plus. 18F compatibility should be in the list of revisions. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList @spam@piclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspammitvma.mit.edu

At 07:42 PM 8/29/02 +1000, you wrote: >Hi, I got some PIC 18F452's today, and having never >used the 18 series parts I have a couple of questions; > >1. Does anyone know if PicStart Plus with 2.3 firmware >and MPLAB 5.3 will program the 18F452? >I'm just about to install the PicStart 2.3 firmware, >but the help file that comes with it is sketchy on the >18F parts. No, you need to upgrade to version 3. I'm not sure whether mplab 5.3 will work or not, but I believe the answer is no. When I upgraded my PicStart, my MPLAB (I can't remember what version I was on at that point, but I think 5.4) would not work. I had to download a new mplab to restore functionality. You don't need to upgrade to beta 6.0 however, the 5.7 they have on the website will work fine. >2. Is it worth learning the 18F instruction set? I know >the main use of these chips is for larger projects which >suit a higher level language, but i'm more interested >in having the extra processing power especially once the >18 and 8 pin 18F chips are obtainable. Yes, it is. At the master's this year, it was pretty clear to me that microchip was forging on with the 18 series and dsPIC (thought that's still a long time coming). Anyway, I expect the price of the 18 series to continue to fall and I expect to be using it more and more for plain vanilla projects. John Hansen -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList KILLspampiclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspammitvma.mit.edu

Thank you Wouter Carlos Dave Fabio and John for the 18F452 help. :o) I suspected that PSP 3.0 might be needed and that I might have to get the new MPLAB too. That's a pain since Microchip.com crashes my browser constantly now. Will check the new Microchip CD I just got from the agent and see if the downloads are on that. Bummer about the 8 pin 18F chip. Guess I should have paid attention when it was being discussed earlier on the list! Thanks again guys for the help, i'm looking forward to some increased processing power. -Roman -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu

> 1. Does anyone know if PicStart Plus with 2.3 firmware > and MPLAB 5.3 will program the 18F452? Don't know about the picstart, but I think you need MPLAB 5.62 to recognize the F parts. A "dot release" on 5.5 worked also, but that seems unnecessary since 5.62 is available. This is based on getting a promate working, but I think you still need to have MPLAB aware of the part. > 2. Is it worth learning the 18F instruction set? I mentioned this in another post a while ago, but you'll want to learn enough to be aware of differences such as DECF now affects the carry flag, but didn't on the 16 series - means you can't necessarily just drop code in. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList spamBeGonepiclist-unsubscribe-requestspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu

> I suspected that PSP 3.0 might be needed and that > I might have to get the new MPLAB too. That's a pain > since Microchip.com crashes my browser constantly > now. At the moment (be quick, uChip often changes the locations :( www.microchip.com/download/tools/picmicro/devenv/v570/mp57000full .zip > Bummer about the 8 pin 18F chip. Guess I should have > paid attention when it was being discussed earlier > on the list! But the 12f629/675 (much like the 16f627 but with 8 pins) look cool! Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList TakeThisOuTpiclist-unsubscribe-requestEraseMEspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu

I have been reading these posts and I am wondering what ya'll would suggest: the 16F877 or the 18F452. I have been programming pic's for about 3 months and have a small autonomous robot controlled by a 16F628 working. I am wondering what to do next it is obvious that I need to move on to better pic's, but which one? I know that the 18F452 is better etc., but I am wondering which would be better for my level of experience. Thanks! -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

> suggest: the 16F877 or the 18F452. I have been programming > pic's for about > 3 months and have a small autonomous robot controlled by a > 16F628 working. > I am wondering what to do next it is obvious that I need to move on to > better pic's, but which one? I know that the 18F452 is > better etc., but I > am wondering which would be better for my level of experience. IMHO only negative reasons would vote for the 16f877: - 18f not available from your supplier - tools (compiler, programmer) can not handle 18f - you need someone to hold your hand, and that someone has never seen an 18f yet Otherwise the 18f452 would be the better choice. Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

> I have been reading these posts and I am wondering what ya'll would > suggest: the 16F877 or the 18F452. Definitely the 18F452 for hobby projects. It does more, runs faster, is easier to program, an will probably be more compatible with future Microchip innovations. The only drawbacks are that it costs slightly more in low volumes (costs less in high volumes, so you can see where this is heading) and there is less stuff out there on the web about it because it is newer. ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

> Another question: Can the 18F452 self-program ( bootload ) > like the 16F877? This question is clearly answered in a number of obvious places, like the line card and the data sheet. ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

> Another question: Can the 18F452 self-program ( bootload ) Yes > like the 16F877? Not exactly in the same way, sel-writing works more like on the 16f87xA parts. Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

Clayton Mellina wrote... > I have been reading these posts and I am wondering what ya'll would >suggest: the 16F877 or the 18F452. I have been programming pic's for about >3 months and have a small autonomous robot controlled by a 16F628 working. >I am wondering what to do next it is obvious that I need to move on to >better pic's, but which one? I know that the 18F452 is better etc., but I >am wondering which would be better for my level of experience. I'd certainly recommend the 18F parts. The instruction set enhancements make them easier to write code for, not harder. DD -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

> From: Olin Lathrop [RemoveMEolin_piclistTakeThisOuTEMBEDINC.COM] > Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 1:04 PM > > > Another question: Can the 18F452 self-program ( bootload ) > > like the 16F877? > > This question is clearly answered in a number of obvious > places, like the > line card and the data sheet. I don't think the question is so clearly answered. Can the 18F452 self-program? YES Like the 16F877? NO The 16F877 could read/write/erase individual instruction memory locations. The 18F452 can read one byte, write an eight byte block, and erase a 64 byte block. There is also an errata that describes a data corruption condition that can occur if interrupts happen during a table write. -Mike -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads