Post by thread:[PIC]: stupid mistakes

Part II of my most stupid [PIC] mistakes. I am trying to read an ADXL two-axis accelerometer. It outputs 2.5V +/- 0.3V, so to increase the A/D resolution I use 2.0 as -ref and 3.0 as +ref. But I only got either 000 or 3FF as A/D reading. I was totally flabbergasted, untill I re-checked which pin is -ref and which +ref. I had of course switched the pins. Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

I spent half of Friday trying to figure out why an F88 would make a pin oscillate on power-up, when it had been fine previously. The problem seemed to be related to calling a certain routine, that I could fine nothing wrong with. Despite changing variable names and order, looking through the manual and code until I was just so fed up. Then it dawned on me - last thing Thursday night I'd added a dt statement, ORGed at 0x600. The little bit of call code had pushed END past the programmer's range (0-2ff) as well, so the s/w was just jumping into space, missing a routine that wasn't even there You really need that sort of stuff don't you

Wouter van Ooijen wrote: > I am trying to read an ADXL two-axis accelerometer. It outputs 2.5V > +/- > 0.3V, so to increase the A/D resolution I use 2.0 as -ref and 3.0 as > +ref. But I only got either 000 or 3FF as A/D reading. I was totally > flabbergasted, untill I re-checked which pin is -ref and which +ref. I > had of course switched the pins. Also don't you need a minimum of 2V(?) from Vref- to Vref+ even if they are otherwise within range? ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

Jinx wrote: > I spent half of Friday trying to figure out why an F88 would make > a pin oscillate on power-up, when it had been fine previously. The > problem seemed to be related to calling a certain routine, that I > could fine nothing wrong with. Despite changing variable names > and order, looking through the manual and code until I was just > so fed up. Then it dawned on me - last thing Thursday night I'd > added a dt statement, ORGed at 0x600. The little bit of call code > had pushed END past the programmer's range (0-2ff) as well, so > the s/w was just jumping into space, missing a routine that wasn't > even there If you'd used the linker, it would have told you something didn't fit. However, I don't know what you mean about the "programmer's range". The 16F88 has 4K words of program memory which extend from 0 to 7FFh. There is nothing special about 2FF which is somewhere in the middle of page 0. ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

> However, I don't know what you mean about the "programmer's > range" To minimise programming time the PS+ upper limit was set to 2ff, not the full fff. The dt addition I made at 0x600 was therefore not programmed into the chip, so there were no retlws for the calls to bounce back from

Jinx wrote: > To minimise programming time the PS+ upper limit was set to > 2ff, not the full fff. The dt addition I made at 0x600 was therefore > not programmed into the chip, so there were no retlws for the > calls to bounce back from I thought MPLAB can set the programming range automatically. I haven't used the Picstart+ in years, but I know it works that way with the ICD2. Even then it makes me wonder about the Picstart+. A full 16F88 takes less than 15 seconds to program with two verify passes, and I know the Picstart+ only does one. Also, there is no reason the programmer can't automatically skip words set to the erased value. Any memory address limit would therefore only apply to the single verify pass, which can't save much. Or the Picstart+/MPLAB combination is very poorly implemented. ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

> I thought MPLAB can set the programming range automatically Might be wrong but I don't believe it can, not with the PS+ AFAIK > A full 16F88 takes less than 15 seconds to program with two > verify passes > there is no reason the programmer can't automatically skip words > set to the erased value. Any memory address limit would therefore > only apply to the single verify pass, which can't save much. > Or the Picstart+/MPLAB combination is very poorly implemented The PS+ is a very old design and slow as a wet week, although I'd have though the introduction of the PUM would have improved performance. Normally I get by, but a current job with an F452 is frustrating at times. It takes 90 seconds to program 0 -> 401F. It also takes the fun out of coding If anyone knows that the PS+ can go faster, I'd like hear from them. It could be simply that I've not read all the documentation A second programmer is definitely on the shopping list (apart from anything else, I have projects using mixed micros and even with ICSP there's still too much cable swapping)

I assume you are doing professional jobs so price of above US$100 will be okay. For that MPLAB ICD2 (US$155), Promate III (US$895) and ProProg (US$295) can be considered if PS+ (US$199) is not up to the task. MPLAB ICD2 is pretty good to program the PICDEM2+ with 18F452 I am experimenting now. Still I have no big example to fill the whole 18F452 so I am not so sure if it is faster than PS+ or not. Be sure to buy the original or the full-blown clones in this case. Promate 3 is pretty fast but it costs US$895 so Olin's ProProg (US$295) may be a better deal as long as your chip is supported (I think most 18Fs/dsPICs are supported by ProProg). I have only used PM3 with some 16F chips so I am not so sure whether PM3 is much faster than PS+. I think Olin should have data for ProProg. I do not have a PS+ but maybe you can try picp. Jeff Post is now maintaining the picp program under Linux/Windows. Picp supports Warp13 (up to the last publicly available firmware), JuPIC and PS+. Maybe you can try picp for PS+ to see if it is better for you. http://home.pacbell.net/theposts/picmicro By the way, Jeff is now working on pk2, a command line utility to work with MicroChip's PICkit2 programmer under Linux (and Windows). PICkit 2 (US$35) should be able to support 18F chips late this year. But compared to ICD2/PM3/PS+, it is certainly less powerful. As a side note, the author of the following programmer claims to have very fast programming but I have no experience with it. http://home.arcor.de/bernhard.michelis/ Regards, Xiaofan {Original Message removed}

> From: "Chen Xiao Fan" Thanks for taking the trouble to list those programmers. One good thing about the PS+ is that it always works. Never had a PIC it couldn't do. I feel for those who've built something cheap off the web and had troubles (had that myself with the Fluffy2, not fun)

PS+ does not support the 18F USB parts like 18F2550 and 18F4550 as yet. It also does not support some new 18Fs like 18F6525. It does not support dsPICs as well. In this aspect, ICD2 is better. However ICD2 is a pain to use for some ICSP applications and chips like 16F629/675 which requires Vpp before Vdd. Anyway I think PS+ will support more chips later. So maybe Olin's ProProg is a good choice for you even though I have no experience with it. Regards, Xiaofan -----Original Message----- From: Jinx [spam_OUTjoecolquittTakeThisOuTclear.net.nz] Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 10:50 AM To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. Subject: Re: [PIC]: stupid mistakes Thanks for taking the trouble to list those programmers. One good thing about the PS+ is that it always works. Never had a PIC it couldn't do. I feel for those who've built something cheap off the web and had troubles (had that myself with the Fluffy2, not fun)

> Anyway I think PS+ will support more chips later I'm surprised dsPICs aren't already (although they might be - after a look around MC's site I haven't found the PUM download), but I've no application for them yet so that's not important right now

> Also don't you need a minimum of 2V(?) from Vref- to Vref+ > even if they are otherwise within range? Correct. But the only thing I need from the A/D is resolution and monotonicity, so I just tried with this smaller range and it seems to be OK. Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

On 10/2/05, Wouter van Ooijen <.....wouterKILLspam@spam@voti.nl> wrote: > Part II of my most stupid [PIC] mistakes. > > I am trying to read an ADXL two-axis accelerometer. It outputs 2.5V +/- > 0.3V, so to increase the A/D resolution I use 2.0 as -ref and 3.0 as > +ref. But I only got either 000 or 3FF as A/D reading. I was totally > flabbergasted, untill I re-checked which pin is -ref and which +ref. I > had of course switched the pins. Still have doubts that you have the entire 10 bit resolution. I think not. In fact I'm sure. :) cheers, Vasile

> Still have doubts that you have the entire 10 bit resolution. > I think not. In fact I'm sure. It seems I do get the resolution. Probably not the linearity, but I don't need that. What makes you sure? Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

part 1 1314 bytes content-type:text/plain; (decoded 7bit) Chen Xiao Fan wrote: > Promate 3 is pretty fast but it costs US$895 so Olin's > ProProg (US$295) may be a better deal as long as your chip > is supported (I think most 18Fs/dsPICs are supported by > ProProg). All the 30Fs are, and most of the mainstream 18F and 16F, but there are still some missing. I've attached my list of what is not yet supported. > I have only used PM3 with some 16F chips > so I am not so sure whether PM3 is much faster than PS+. > I think Olin should have data for ProProg. I've usually tried to pay attention to performance within reason. Some things I thought were just too much trouble for the limited return, like multiple simultaneous panel writes on a 18F252. Still, I think you'll find my programmers are a good chunk faster than a Picstart+. I think my grandmother would be faster toggling in the bits by hand. For example I remember that I can program a full 16F88 in about 14 seconds, which is twice as fast as a Picstart+ if I understood Jinx correctly. When I get back to my real office this afternoon I'll try to run some tests and publish the results. Actually it would be nice to compare various programmers. I'll make the HEX files I use available so that we can have a good apples to apples comparison. part 2 728 bytes content-type:text/plain; (decoded 7bit) Flash PICs not supported by the ProProg --------------------------------------- 12F508 DS41227D 509 16F54 DS41207C 16F57 DS41208B 59 DS41243A 16F72 DS39588A 16F73 DS30324B 74 76 77 16F83* DS30262E 16F84* 16F84A 16F505 DS41226E 16F737 DS30492B 747 767 777 16F785 DS41237A 16F818 DS39603C 819 16F913 DS41244B 914 916 917 18F2331 DS30500A 2431 4331 4431 18F6310 DS39624B 6390 6410 6490 8310 8390 8410 8490 18F6525 DS30499B 6621 8525 8621 18F6527 DS39643B 6622 6627 6722 8527 8622 8627 8722 18F6585 DS39606C 6680 8585 8680 part 3 35 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii" (decoded 7bit)

Jinx wrote: > Thanks for taking the trouble to list those programmers. One > good thing about the PS+ is that it always works. Never had > a PIC it couldn't do. I feel for those who've built something > cheap off the web and had troubles (had that myself with the > Fluffy2, not fun) I didn't think the Picstart+ supported dsPICs, but I haven't looked in a while. I've heard talk of a lot of homebrew programmers here, but "Fluffy2" is new to me. Strange name, does it cough up hairballs a lot or something? ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

> I've heard talk of a lot of homebrew programmers here, but > "Fluffy2" is new > to me. Strange name, does it cough up hairballs a lot or something? IIRC it is about the only intelligent-class progger that does SX chips. Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

>From the following post, most likely 18F2550/4550 will be supported later. http://forum.microchip.com/tm.asp?m=111109 PS+ does not support any dsPICs. Regards, Xiaofan >From Readme for PICSTART+ under MPLAB 7.21. ----------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Device Support List ----------------------------------------------------------------- Supported in Supported in Device OS (FW) Version Device OS (FW) Version ------------- --------------- ------------- --------------- PIC10F200! (04.30.00) PIC16F690* (04.10.06) PIC10F202! (04.30.00) PIC16F716 (04.10.00) PIC10F204! (04.30.00) PIC16F72 (02.10.01) PIC10F206! (04.30.00) PIC16F73 (02.10.01) PIC10F220* (04.30.01) PIC16F737 (04.10.00) PIC10F222* (04.30.01) PIC16F74 (02.10.01) PIC12C508 (02.01.00) PIC16F747 (04.10.00) PIC12C508A (02.01.00) PIC16F76 (02.10.01) PIC12C509 (02.01.00) PIC16F767 (04.10.00) PIC12C509A (02.01.00) PIC16F77 (02.10.01) PIC12C671 (02.01.00) PIC16F777 (04.10.00) PIC12C672 (02.01.00) PIC16F785* (04.40.00) PIC12CE518 (02.01.00) PIC16F818! (03.00.07) PIC12CE519 (02.01.00) PIC16F819! (03.00.07) PIC12CE673 (02.01.00) PIC16F83 (02.01.00) PIC12CE674 (02.01.00) PIC16F84 (02.01.00) PIC12F508 (04.30.00) PIC16F84A (02.01.00) PIC12F509 (04.30.00) PIC16F87 (04.10.00) PIC12F510* (04.30.00) PIC16F870 (02.01.00) PIC12F629 (03.00.07) PIC16F871 (02.01.00) PIC12F635 (04.20.03) PIC16F872 (02.01.00) PIC12F675 (03.00.07) PIC16F873 (02.01.00) PIC12F683 (04.02.00) PIC16F873A (03.00.07) PIC16C505 (02.01.00) PIC16F874 (02.01.00) PIC16C54 (02.01.00) PIC16F874A (03.00.07) PIC16C54C (02.01.00) PIC16F876 (02.01.00) PIC16C55 (02.01.00) PIC16F876A (03.00.07) PIC16C554 (02.01.00) PIC16F877 (02.01.00) PIC16C558 (02.01.00) PIC16F877A (03.00.07) PIC16C55A (02.01.00) PIC16F88 (04.10.00) PIC16C56 (02.01.00) PIC16F913* (04.40.01) PIC16C56A! (02.01.00) PIC16F914* (04.40.01) PIC16C57 (02.01.00) PIC16F916* (04.40.01) PIC16C57C! (02.01.00) PIC16F917* (04.40.01) PIC16C58A (02.01.00) PIC16F946* (04.40.01) PIC16C58B (02.01.00) PIC16HV540 (02.01.00) PIC16C620 (02.01.00) PIC17C42 (02.01.00) PIC16C620A (02.01.00) PIC17C42A (02.01.00) PIC16C621 (02.01.00) PIC17C43 (02.01.00) PIC16C621A (02.01.00) PIC17C44 (02.01.00) PIC16C622 (02.01.00) PIC17C752 (02.01.00) PIC16C622A (02.01.00) PIC17C756 (02.01.00) PIC16C62A (02.01.00) PIC17C756A (02.01.00) PIC16C62B (02.01.00) PIC17C762 (02.01.00) PIC16C63 (02.01.00) PIC17C766 (02.01.00) PIC16C63A (02.01.00) PIC18C242 (02.01.00) PIC16C642 (02.01.00) PIC18C252 (02.01.00) PIC16C64A (02.01.00) PIC18C442 (02.01.00) PIC16C65A (02.01.00) PIC18C452 (02.01.00) PIC16C65B (02.01.00) PIC18C658 (02.01.00) PIC16C66 (02.01.00) PIC18C858 (02.01.00) PIC16C662 (02.01.00) PIC18F1220#* (04.10.00) PIC16C67 (02.01.00) PIC18F1320*# (04.10.00) PIC16C71 (02.01.00) PIC18F2220 (04.02.00) PIC16C710 (02.01.00) PIC18F2320 (04.02.00) PIC16C711 (02.01.00) PIC18F2331*! (04.02.00) PIC16C712 (02.01.00) PIC18F2410 (04.30.01) PIC16C715 (02.01.00) PIC18F242 (02.30.01) PIC16C716 (02.01.00) PIC18F2420 (04.30.01) PIC16C717 (02.10.01) PIC18F2431*! (04.02.00) PIC16C72 (02.01.00) PIC18F2455 (04.30.01) PIC16C72A (02.01.00) PIC18F248 (02.30.01) PIC16C73A (02.01.00) PIC18F2480* (04.30.03) PIC16C73B (02.01.00) PIC18F2510 (04.30.01) PIC16C745 (02.01.00) PIC18F2515 (04.30.01) PIC16C74A (02.01.00) PIC18F252 (02.30.01) PIC16C74B (02.01.00) PIC18F2520 (04.30.01) PIC16C76 (02.01.00) PIC18F2525 (04.30.01) PIC16C765 (02.01.00) PIC18F258 (02.30.01) PIC16C77 (02.01.00) PIC18F2580* (04.30.03) PIC16C770 (02.10.01) PIC18F2585 (04.30.01) PIC16C771 (02.10.01) PIC18F2610 (04.30.01) PIC16C773 (02.01.00) PIC18F2620 (04.30.01) PIC16C774 (02.01.00) PIC18F2680 (04.30.01) PIC16C781 (02.30.00) PIC18F4220 (04.02.00) PIC16C782 (02.30.00) PIC18F4320 (04.02.00) PIC16C923 (02.01.00) PIC18F4331 (04.02.00) PIC16C924 (02.01.00) PIC18F4410 (04.30.01) PIC16C925 (02.01.00) PIC18F442 (02.30.01) PIC16C926 (02.01.00) PIC18F4420 (04.30.01) PIC16CE623 (02.01.00) PIC18F4431 (04.02.00) PIC16CE624 (02.01.00) PIC18F4455 (04.30.01) PIC16CE625 (02.01.00) PIC18F448 (02.30.01) PIC16F505 (04.30.00) PIC18F4480* (04.30.03) PIC16F506* (04.30.00) PIC18F4510 (04.30.01) PIC16F54 (04.02.00) PIC18F4515 (04.30.01) PIC16F57! (04.02.00) PIC18F452 (02.30.01) PIC16F627 (02.10.01) PIC18F4520 (04.30.01) PIC16F627A (04.10.00) PIC18F4525 (04.30.01) PIC16F628 (02.10.01) PIC18F458 (02.30.01) PIC16F628A (04.10.00) PIC18F4580* (04.30.03) PIC16F630 (03.00.06) PIC18F4585 (04.30.01) PIC16F636 (04.12.04) PIC18F4610 (04.30.01) PIC16F639* (04.10.06) PIC18F4620 (04.30.01) PIC16F648A (04.10.00) PIC18F4680 (04.30.01) PIC16F676 (03.00.06) PIC18F6620! (03.00.07) PIC16F684 (04.10.00) PIC18F6720! (03.00.07) PIC16F685* (04.10.06) PIC18F8620! (03.00.07) PIC16F687* (04.10.06) PIC18F8720! (03.00.07) PIC16F688 (04.10.00) rfPIC12C509AF! (02.01.00) PIC16F689* (04.10.06) rfPIC12C509AG! (02.01.00) * Indicates beta-support part(s) in this release. ! See Sections 7-12 in this readme for information on programming these devices. # Some revisions of these parts fail to program. # Some revisions of these parts fail to program. On 10/3/05, Olin Lathrop <olin_piclistKILLspamembedinc.com> wrote: > > I didn't think the Picstart+ supported dsPICs, but I haven't looked in a > while. >

That would be nice and I can test PM3 for some of the 16F and 18F chips I have. I am now using serial port for Promate 3. Regards, Xiaofan On 10/3/05, Olin Lathrop <.....olin_piclistKILLspam.....embedinc.com> wrote: > > When I get back to my real office this afternoon I'll try to run some tests > and publish the results. Actually it would be nice to compare various > programmers. I'll make the HEX files I use available so that we can have a > good apples to apples comparison. >

> I can program a full 16F88 in about 14 seconds, which is > twice as fast as a Picstart+ if I understood Jinx correctly More than 3x. I think the logic MC used has real glue in it Then again, the PS+ pre-dates flash PICs so you have to make some allowances. At the time I got mine the F84 had just been released, and it was a blessed relief to switch from EPROM / OTP Motorolas. I'm grateful to have had a programmer that's been of good service for many many years, but it's lagging behind the competition now

>Jinx wrote: >>To minimise programming time the PS+ upper limit was set to >>2ff, not the full fff. The dt addition I made at 0x600 was therefore >>not programmed into the chip, so there were no retlws for the >>calls to bounce back from >Olin wrote: >I thought MPLAB can set the programming range automatically. I haven't used >the Picstart+ in years, but I know it works that way with the ICD2. Been there, done that, lived through history... - Set program limit to 7FF so 16F877 wouldn't take so long. - Program eventually got bigger than that. Debugging with ICD would show "I'm at 97C and having fun executing all these 3F's..." - Fixed programming limit and wondered if MPLAB could look out for this. - MPLAB upgraded to look out for this. - 16F877A released, but we only had an ICD-1. - "A" chips priced below originals, we switched, and got an ICD2. - "A" chips program so fast we no longer care about "shorting" the program space. - MPLAB now autocalculates the range... Progress... Barry ... now using 18F6621, so that we can have programs so big that programming time is becoming significant again!

Did you mean +2.0V and +3.0V ? Which PIC? I remember some PICs require 2.0V minimum separation between Vref+ and Vref-. Cheers, -Neil. On Sunday 02 October 2005 01:39 pm, Wouter van Ooijen scribbled: {Quote hidden}> Part II of my most stupid [PIC] mistakes. > > I am trying to read an ADXL two-axis accelerometer. It outputs 2.5V +/- > 0.3V, so to increase the A/D resolution I use 2.0 as -ref and 3.0 as > +ref. But I only got either 000 or 3FF as A/D reading. I was totally > flabbergasted, untill I re-checked which pin is -ref and which +ref. I > had of course switched the pins. > > Wouter van Ooijen > > -- ------------------------------------------- > Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl > consultancy, development, PICmicro products > docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu