Post by thread:[PIC]:Need help badly

Hello, I'm pretty new to PIC programming and I'm having some problems. I'm using PicBasic, CodeDesigner Lite, a Warp 13 programmer, and a Serial LCD display in my project which works but not like I'd like it to! Here is my code: 'Ultrasonic Range Finder Symbol TRISB = 134 Symbol PortB = 6 Poke TRISB,8 Loop: SerOut 2, T2400, (12) 'Send out Clear Screen Low 0 'Make sure Initiate is low Pause 10 'Wait 10 MS High 0 'Now Initiate Range Finder PulsIn 3, 0, W3 'Receive "Echo", put data in W3 Pause 150 'Wait .15 second Low 0 'Bring initiate low LET W2 = W3 * 10 'W3 times 10 equals W2 IF W2 = 0 Then Loop 'If no data in W2, go to loop LET W0 = W2 / 178 'Divide W2 by 178, put answer in W0 Pause 10 'Wait a bit SerOut 2, T2400, (12,2,#W0) 'Send what's in W0 out to display******I've also tried this (12,1,2,#B0,46,#B1) Pause 800 'Wait .8 second GoTo Loop 'Do it all again End What I'd like this Ultrasonic Range Finder to do is to display in large numbers, the feet and tenths of a foot on the LCD display. All I've been able to get it to display is the feet and tenths of a foot like this, 79, where the 7 is feet, and 9 is the tenths of a foot. I'd like to have a decimal point between the feet and tenths of a foot on the LCD display. The maximum range should be about 26'. I've tried manipulation of B0 and B1, but really don't understand enough about this to have been, or to be successful. Any assistance any of you could be with this project, will be greatly appreciated! Thanks. L. Barta ____________________________________________

L. Barta wrote : > Hello, > > I'm pretty new to PIC programming and I'm having some > problems. I'm using PicBasic, CodeDesigner Lite, a > Warp 13 programmer,... I know nothing about anyone of those, but just a few notes... {Quote hidden}> and a Serial LCD display in my project which > works but not like I'd like it to! > Here is my code: > > 'Ultrasonic Range Finder > > Symbol TRISB = 134 > Symbol PortB = 6 > Poke TRISB,8 > Loop: > SerOut 2, T2400, (12) 'Send out Clear Screen > Low 0 'Make sure Initiate is low > Pause 10 'Wait 10 MS > High 0 'Now Initiate Range Finder > PulsIn 3, 0, W3 'Receive "Echo", put data in W3 > Pause 150 'Wait .15 second > Low 0 'Bring initiate low > LET W2 = W3 * 10 'W3 times 10 equals W2 > IF W2 = 0 Then Loop 'If no data in W2, go to loop > LET W0 = W2 / 178 'Divide W2 by 178, put answer in W0 > Pause 10 'Wait a bit > SerOut 2, T2400, (12,2,#W0) 'Send what's in W0 out to > display******I've > also tried this (12,1,2,#B0,46,#B1) > > Pause 800 'Wait .8 second > GoTo Loop 'Do it all again > End What is the data type of each variable ? 8-bit int ? 16-bit int ? Or maybe ome kind of "float" ? Does they have some default fdta type ? That is, you don't have to declare them ? /Jan-Erik. > ____________________________________________

Hi- This question would be best put to a newsgroup concerning PicBasic. After perusing the web, I think you will have to split up W0 into the two parts. B0 and B1 are not what you want, as these (I think) are the two halves of W0 as bytes or B0=W0/256 and B1=W0 mod 256. You want the feed W0 out as its Whole-Part, a period, and its Fractional-Part, so define two more variables (the names will need to be appropriately chosen): B4 = W0/10 <-- the whole part of the result W1 = B4*10 B5 = W0-W1 <-- the fractional part of the result Now you need to send out #B4, a ".", and #B5 - you might need multiple SEROUTs for this bit. If B5 ends up being displayed as, say, "02" instead of "2" (ie with a leading zero) then you could try: B5=B5*10, so you would get "20" displayed instead, or if you can't live with the extra 0: B5="0"+B5 , which gets you the ASCII code for that digit into B5, and you would display with B5 (no #). Please note the above is based on this page: http://www.rentron.com/PicBasic-LCD.htm and some long ago hacking with Basic for PICs, so beware! David L. Barta wrote: {Quote hidden}> Hello, > > I'm pretty new to PIC programming and I'm having some problems. I'm > using PicBasic, CodeDesigner Lite, a Warp 13 > programmer, and a Serial LCD display in my project which works but not > like I'd like it to! > Here is my code: > > 'Ultrasonic Range Finder > > Symbol TRISB = 134 > Symbol PortB = 6 > Poke TRISB,8 > Loop: > SerOut 2, T2400, (12) 'Send out Clear Screen > Low 0 'Make sure Initiate is low > Pause 10 'Wait 10 MS > High 0 'Now Initiate Range Finder > PulsIn 3, 0, W3 'Receive "Echo", put data in W3 > Pause 150 'Wait .15 second > Low 0 'Bring initiate low > LET W2 = W3 * 10 'W3 times 10 equals W2 > IF W2 = 0 Then Loop 'If no data in W2, go to loop > LET W0 = W2 / 178 'Divide W2 by 178, put answer in W0 > Pause 10 'Wait a bit > SerOut 2, T2400, (12,2,#W0) 'Send what's in W0 out to > display******I've also tried this (12,1,2,#B0,46,#B1) > > Pause 800 'Wait .8 second > GoTo Loop 'Do it all again > End > > What I'd like this Ultrasonic Range Finder to do is to display in > large numbers, the feet and tenths of a foot on the LCD display. All > I've been able to get it to display is the feet and tenths of a foot > like this, 79, where the 7 is feet, and 9 is the tenths of a foot. I'd > like to have a decimal point between the feet and tenths of a foot on > the LCD display. The maximum range should be about 26'. > > I've tried manipulation of B0 and B1, but really don't understand > enough about this to have been, or to be successful. > > Any assistance any of you could be with this project, will be greatly > appreciated! > > Thanks. > L. Barta > > > > ______________________________________________

I'm sorry but that's crazy. Why on earth are you showing tenths of a foot? Either use meters, in which case you can use tenths (as meters are base10)/ If you want to use feet, then I would think that you should show inches as the smaller unit (1/12). You can use the correct indicators also. ' indicates feet, " indicates inches. Sorry I can't help you with the code, I have never touched PicBasic. It looks pretty mixed up, maybe you should learn C or ASM instead, there would certainly be more help available if you did. L. Barta wrote: {Quote hidden}> Hello, > > I'm pretty new to PIC programming and I'm having some problems. I'm > using PicBasic, CodeDesigner Lite, a Warp 13 > programmer, and a Serial LCD display in my project which works but not > like I'd like it to! > Here is my code: > > 'Ultrasonic Range Finder > > Symbol TRISB = 134 > Symbol PortB = 6 > Poke TRISB,8 > Loop: > SerOut 2, T2400, (12) 'Send out Clear Screen > Low 0 'Make sure Initiate is low > Pause 10 'Wait 10 MS > High 0 'Now Initiate Range Finder > PulsIn 3, 0, W3 'Receive "Echo", put data in W3 > Pause 150 'Wait .15 second > Low 0 'Bring initiate low > LET W2 = W3 * 10 'W3 times 10 equals W2 > IF W2 = 0 Then Loop 'If no data in W2, go to loop > LET W0 = W2 / 178 'Divide W2 by 178, put answer in W0 > Pause 10 'Wait a bit > SerOut 2, T2400, (12,2,#W0) 'Send what's in W0 out to > display******I've also tried this (12,1,2,#B0,46,#B1) > > Pause 800 'Wait .8 second > GoTo Loop 'Do it all again > End > > What I'd like this Ultrasonic Range Finder to do is to display in > large numbers, the feet and tenths of a foot on the LCD display. All > I've been able to get it to display is the feet and tenths of a foot > like this, 79, where the 7 is feet, and 9 is the tenths of a foot. I'd > like to have a decimal point between the feet and tenths of a foot on > the LCD display. The maximum range should be about 26'. > > I've tried manipulation of B0 and B1, but really don't understand > enough about this to have been, or to be successful. > > Any assistance any of you could be with this project, will be greatly > appreciated! > > Thanks. > L. Barta > > > > ______________________________________________

part 1 1292 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed (decoded 7bit) Surveyors and geographers use decimal feet. Admittedly, they are probably a little crazy in their own right but why not follow their convention? How is that crazy? Just a hypothetical question. REB Justin Fielding wrote: {Quote hidden}> I'm sorry but that's crazy. Why on earth are you showing tenths of a > foot? Either use meters, in which case you can use tenths (as meters > are base10)/ If you want to use feet, then I would think that you > should show inches as the smaller unit (1/12). You can use the > correct indicators also. ' indicates feet, " indicates inches. > > Sorry I can't help you with the code, I have never touched PicBasic. > It looks pretty mixed up, maybe you should learn C or ASM instead, > there would certainly be more help available if you did. > > L. Barta wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> I'm pretty new to PIC programming and I'm having some problems. I'm >> using PicBasic, CodeDesigner Lite, a Warp 13 >> programmer, and a Serial LCD display in my project which works but >> not like I'd like it to! >> Here is my code: >> >> 'Ultrasonic Range Finder >> >> Symbol TRISB = 134 >> Symbol PortB = 6 > > part 2 186 bytes content-type:text/plain; x-avg=cert; charset=us-ascii (decoded quoted-printable) No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.289 / Virus Database: 265.4.2 - Release Date: 11/24/2004 part 3 79 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii" (decoded 7bit) ____________________________________________

lol, it's kind of a contradiction in terms, decimal feet. I wonder why the UK didn't think of that when the EU made them go decimal... Why would Surveyors and geographers not just use m/cm/mm? Roy E. Burrage wrote: {Quote hidden}> Surveyors and geographers use decimal feet. Admittedly, they are > probably a little crazy in their own right but why not follow their > convention? How is that crazy? > > Just a hypothetical question. > > REB > > Justin Fielding wrote: > >> I'm sorry but that's crazy. Why on earth are you showing tenths of a >> foot? Either use meters, in which case you can use tenths (as meters >> are base10)/ If you want to use feet, then I would think that you >> should show inches as the smaller unit (1/12). You can use the >> correct indicators also. ' indicates feet, " indicates inches. >> >> Sorry I can't help you with the code, I have never touched PicBasic. >> It looks pretty mixed up, maybe you should learn C or ASM instead, >> there would certainly be more help available if you did. >> >> L. Barta wrote: >> >>> Hello, >>> >>> I'm pretty new to PIC programming and I'm having some problems. I'm >>> using PicBasic, CodeDesigner Lite, a Warp 13 >>> programmer, and a Serial LCD display in my project which works but >>> not like I'd like it to! >>> Here is my code: >>> >>> 'Ultrasonic Range Finder >>> >>> Symbol TRISB = 134 >>> Symbol PortB = 6 >> >> >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.289 / Virus Database: 265.4.2 - Release Date: 11/24/2004 > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_____________________________________________

Really? The currency used to be in fractions, not decimal. E.g. £1 - 1/5 instead of £1.20... I assumed the change came in with the EU being formed, it was some time in the 60's I think (Im' too young to actually remember it). Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote: {Quote hidden}>>lol, it's kind of a contradiction in terms, decimal feet. I >>wonder why the UK didn't think of that when the EU >>made them go decimal... >> >> > >They did not "go decimal", they went "metric". And I don't think >it was the EU that made them do that, the UK'ers are pretty clever >by themselfs... > >Jan-Erik. >____________________________________________

Hmm... £1.20 would not be expressed as one and a fifth pounds at all. 5 (new) pence is one old shilling, so £1.20 was one pound and four shillings. Or One Pound and 2 florins. Or One Gunea and 3 shillings. I guess it's obvious why we decimalised! BTW, the conversion from Pounds, shillings and pence was called 'Decimalisation' and the conversion from Stones, Pounds, Oz (weight) etc to Kg etc is called 'metrication'. Metrication is still ongoing in the UK, and as a result I buy most food in Kg & Litres, except milk which is still sold in Pints, and beer also pints. Road mileage is still shown in Miles not Km. Peter Moreton {Original Message removed}

part 1 2714 bytes content-type:multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; (unknown type 8bit not decoded) This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms090803030208090702090802 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit :) Thanks, I never did quite understand all of that old style money. I think it's a good thing that we have kept miles, I don't know why, I prefer them. I'm living in Turkey at the moment and I just don't like KM (not to mention driving on the wrong side of the road and having the gear stick on the wrong side) :) I must say that I find when doing any engineering work, mm seem to be the easiest to work with accuratly. I still like to use inches and feet when working with aircraft however. I thought they had stopped selling milk in pints now. I know the size is still a pint, but don't they actually have to put the volume in ml/l on the carton/bottle? Justin. Peter Moreton wrote: {Quote hidden}>Hmm... £1.20 would not be expressed as one and a fifth pounds at all. 5 >(new) pence is one old shilling, so £1.20 was one pound and four shillings. >Or One Pound and 2 florins. Or One Gunea and 3 shillings. I guess it's >obvious why we decimalised! > >BTW, the conversion from Pounds, shillings and pence was called >'Decimalisation' and the conversion from Stones, Pounds, Oz (weight) etc to >Kg etc is called 'metrication'. Metrication is still ongoing in the UK, and >as a result I buy most food in Kg & Litres, except milk which is still sold >in Pints, and beer also pints. Road mileage is still shown in Miles not Km. > >Peter Moreton > > >{Original Message removed}

Seems like pots are calling kettles black... What is the pin spacing on pretty much all TH components .... 0.1" All PCB's are measured in decimals of inches. 10 pins per inch.... used a bread-board recently? Seems to me that the people in this list should have no problem thinking in decimalised imperial units. ;-) Rolf Peter Moreton wrote: {Quote hidden}>Hmm... £1.20 would not be expressed as one and a fifth pounds at all. 5 >(new) pence is one old shilling, so £1.20 was one pound and four shillings. >Or One Pound and 2 florins. Or One Gunea and 3 shillings. I guess it's >obvious why we decimalised! > >BTW, the conversion from Pounds, shillings and pence was called >'Decimalisation' and the conversion from Stones, Pounds, Oz (weight) etc to >Kg etc is called 'metrication'. Metrication is still ongoing in the UK, and >as a result I buy most food in Kg & Litres, except milk which is still sold >in Pints, and beer also pints. Road mileage is still shown in Miles not Km. > >Peter Moreton > > >{Original Message removed}

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004, Rolf wrote: > Seems like pots are calling kettles black... > > What is the pin spacing on pretty much all TH components .... 0.1" All PCB's > are measured in decimals of inches. 10 pins per inch.... used a bread-board > recently? > > Seems to me that the people in this list should have no problem thinking in > decimalised imperial units. ;-) Except if you are using certain parts from mainland China or ex-USSR which are both metric. East Block large (>40 pin) chips used to have insertion problems into boards laid out for the imperial system. Same for certain long connectors. Peter ____________________________________________

At 12:15 PM 11/26/2004, Peter L. Peres wrote: >On Fri, 26 Nov 2004, Rolf wrote: > >>Seems like pots are calling kettles black... >> >>What is the pin spacing on pretty much all TH components .... 0.1" All >>PCB's are measured in decimals of inches. 10 pins per inch.... used a >>bread-board recently? >> >>Seems to me that the people in this list should have no problem thinking >>in decimalised imperial units. ;-) > >Except if you are using certain parts from mainland China or ex-USSR which >are both metric. East Block large (>40 pin) chips used to have insertion >problems into boards laid out for the imperial system. Same for certain >long connectors. Rounding errors aside, fractional or decimal partials have nothing to do with wether the main units are imperial or metric. 1.95 hogshead, or 2.3 furlongs makes just as much sense as 2/3 Meter or 1/4 gram. It's just that you are used to seeing it the other way more often. ____________________________________________

Those crazy communists huh :-D Justin. Peter L. Peres wrote: {Quote hidden}> > On Fri, 26 Nov 2004, Rolf wrote: > >> Seems like pots are calling kettles black... >> >> What is the pin spacing on pretty much all TH components .... 0.1" >> All PCB's are measured in decimals of inches. 10 pins per inch.... >> used a bread-board recently? >> >> Seems to me that the people in this list should have no problem >> thinking in decimalised imperial units. ;-) > > > Except if you are using certain parts from mainland China or ex-USSR > which are both metric. East Block large (>40 pin) chips used to have > insertion problems into boards laid out for the imperial system. Same > for certain long connectors. > > Peter > ______________________________________________

part 1 2728 bytes content-type:multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; (unknown type 8bit not decoded) This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms050906060909000207070205 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Rolf wrote: > Seems like pots are calling kettles black... > > What is the pin spacing on pretty much all TH components .... 0.1" All > PCB's are measured in decimals of inches. 10 pins per inch.... used a > bread-board recently? No, I really don't do breadboards, hate them. {Quote hidden}> > Seems to me that the people in this list should have no problem > thinking in decimalised imperial units. ;-) > > Rolf > > > Peter Moreton wrote: > >> Hmm... £1.20 would not be expressed as one and a fifth pounds at all. 5 >> (new) pence is one old shilling, so £1.20 was one pound and four >> shillings. >> Or One Pound and 2 florins. Or One Gunea and 3 shillings. I guess it's >> obvious why we decimalised! >> >> BTW, the conversion from Pounds, shillings and pence was called >> 'Decimalisation' and the conversion from Stones, Pounds, Oz (weight) >> etc to >> Kg etc is called 'metrication'. Metrication is still ongoing in the >> UK, and >> as a result I buy most food in Kg & Litres, except milk which is >> still sold >> in Pints, and beer also pints. Road mileage is still shown in Miles >> not Km. >> >> Peter Moreton >> >> >> {Original Message removed}

and in the u.s., we call them 2X4's, but of course they are actually smaller, and are smaller than they used to be (all i can guess is the timber industry decided to pull a fast one to increase yield per tree, sort of like making containers smaller and charging the same price in other industries). i have no problem with something being marked with information in multiple measurement systems, that's not odd at all and is probably often done to aid export (though i know some countries insist on using things like deciliters and other non-engineering prefixes on units, which i consider bad form). now a 2X4, or 4X2 in metric lengths is odd in the extreme. though the "penny" size of nails is probably the most annoying unit of measure to me, other than the persistence of angstroms instead of manometers and some other bastardizations of engineering prefixes. personally, i really wish the u.s. had gone metric/si a long, long time ago, they did consider it when drafting the constitution etc. i believe, but as always it would mean teaching people something new, never mind that it's a lot easier to understand and that in a few decades no one would need to know those truly ugly measurement units, like acre-feet used to measure irrigation water. "Kev Pearce (kevp.com)" wrote: ------- > And if you go to a builders merchants they sell 4"x2" (aka 4B2) timber in 4 > metre lengths!!! ====== -- “Cowardice asks the question: is it safe? Expediency asks the question: is it politic? Vanity asks the question: is it popular? But conscience asks the question: is it right? And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular- but one must take it simply because it is right.” : Martin Luther King Jr. 1929-1968 <http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4614717,00.html> ___________________________________________

the degrees, minutes, seconds, and decimal seconds notation is definitely very, very annoying and awkward. however i suspect that those familiar with it found radian based units rather annoying. i must admit that the need to use many decimal places to represent what are whole numbers in the degree based system is a bit annoying. 360 degrees is much simpler than 2pi, or the numerical representation of 2pi, or 0.25pi converted to a decimal expression. it is a lot more buttons to push on a calculator etc. to maintain resolution even when dealing with otherwise easy to express angles, unless people leave it as a fraction or decimal multiplied by pi which just seems wrong since it's not purely numeric and drags a symbolic constant along with it in addition to the unit of measure. it's definitely much harder to do the math in your head, at least most of the time. "Peter L. Peres" wrote: > > On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Roy E. Burrage wrote: > > > Surveyors and geographers use decimal feet. Admittedly, they are probably a > > little crazy in their own right but why not follow their convention? How is > > that crazy? > > Not so crazy, they tried to go metric but stopped midway in the change ? -------- -- “Cowardice asks the question: is it safe? Expediency asks the question: is it politic? Vanity asks the question: is it popular? But conscience asks the question: is it right? And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular- but one must take it simply because it is right.” : Martin Luther King Jr. 1929-1968 <http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4614717,00.html> ___________________________________________

and their are also those maddening "DB" connectors which are something like 0.109" spacing. so annoying that amp actually made a line of such connectors that did have the pins spaced 0.1" apart, though this was before the advent of good cad tools for circuit boards when many or most were drawn manually on paper. "Peter L. Peres" wrote: ------ > Except if you are using certain parts from mainland China or ex-USSR which > are both metric. East Block large (>40 pin) chips used to have insertion > problems into boards laid out for the imperial system. Same for certain > long connectors. ----- -- “Cowardice asks the question: is it safe? Expediency asks the question: is it politic? Vanity asks the question: is it popular? But conscience asks the question: is it right? And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular- but one must take it simply because it is right.” : Martin Luther King Jr. 1929-1968 <http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4614717,00.html> ___________________________________________

God, radians... I almost forgot that radians existed, I have not used them since I finished physics/maths at college. All I can say is thank you Texas Instruments for some truely great scientific calculators. This thread has really got BIG huh. I'm surprised some of the purists have not moaned that it's off topic. Justin. the madscientist wrote: {Quote hidden}>the degrees, minutes, seconds, and decimal seconds notation is >definitely very, very annoying and awkward. however i suspect that >those familiar with it found radian based units rather annoying. i must >admit that the need to use many decimal places to represent what are >whole numbers in the degree based system is a bit annoying. 360 degrees >is much simpler than 2pi, or the numerical representation of 2pi, or >0.25pi converted to a decimal expression. it is a lot more buttons to >push on a calculator etc. to maintain resolution even when dealing with >otherwise easy to express angles, unless people leave it as a fraction >or decimal multiplied by pi which just seems wrong since it's not purely >numeric and drags a symbolic constant along with it in addition to the >unit of measure. it's definitely much harder to do the math in your >head, at least most of the time. > >"Peter L. Peres" wrote: > > >>On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Roy E. Burrage wrote: >> >> >> >>>Surveyors and geographers use decimal feet. Admittedly, they are probably a >>>little crazy in their own right but why not follow their convention? How is >>>that crazy? >>> >>> >>Not so crazy, they tried to go metric but stopped midway in the change ? >> >> >-------- > > > ____________________________________________

> and in the u.s., we call them 2X4's, but of course they are actually > smaller, and are smaller than they used to be (all i can guess is the > timber industry decided to pull a fast one to increase yield per tree, > sort of like making containers smaller and charging the same price in > other industries). 2x4s are 2 inches by 4 inches rough cut. These are dried, which causes them to warp a bit. An additional amount is then shaved off to make the result flat and straight again. The result is called "dimensional" lumber, and is what is usually sold in consumer lumber stores. I have a saw mill not too far from my house that sells rough cut lumber directly. This lumber really is the advertised size, and costs less than dimensional lumber. I use it whenever I can, although I have to deal with warping on my end. You don't get to have it both ways. > personally, i > really wish the u.s. had gone metric/si a long, long time ago, they > did consider it when drafting the constitution etc. i believe, Metric grew out of the French revolution, which came after the US revolution, so I don't think so. ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com ____________________________________________

Olin Lathrop wrote: ------ > 2x4s are 2 inches by 4 inches rough cut. These are dried, which causes them > to warp a bit. An additional amount is then shaved off to make the result > flat and straight again. The result is called "dimensional" lumber, and is > what is usually sold in consumer lumber stores. -------- yes, i knew that, but they are now finished to a smaller size than they were before, me thinks they are being rough cut smaller. i to have used rough cut lumber, particularly for fences. if i could get it here i would, much of the "dimensional" lumber being sold lately has a warp that's hard to deal with so it may as well be untrimmed, but then again they aren't drying it as much as they traditionally did either so it isn't fully stabilized when they trim it. i've been to what is supposed to be one of the better commercial saw mills that produces "premium" 2X4's ("straighter than most, mostly because of the trees used), i was not impressed with any facet of the operation, they hardly seemed capable of producing a superior product. not that most employees didn't work hard, it was clearly a management attitude problem. it was interesting none the less, particularly how all the scrap was simply burned in a huge outdoor furnace, with no attempt to recover any of the energy or control the emissions at all. they probably could have gotten enough heat for their steam plant that dried the wood from that furnace with a little work, but then that would save money eventually. > > personally, i > > really wish the u.s. had gone metric/si a long, long time ago, they > > did consider it when drafting the constitution etc. i believe, > > Metric grew out of the French revolution, which came after the US > revolution, so I don't think so. possibly, i had thought that franklin had fought for it. i'm not sure when the units first became available, but i don't doubt the french were the first to adopt them officially. i could certainly be wrong, thinking about it the "source" that told me was not one of the most honest people i've known, and had that b.s. disease that so many have. in any case, i'd love to forget everything i ever learned about the "english" or what bob veila and sears have the nerve to call "standard" system...or empirical or whatever you want to call the hodge podge of odd units we use. -- Just the truth Corporate controlled news is white washing, the real motives and aims of heir Bush: www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6895.htm <www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5069215-103677,00.html> www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7369.htm www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7370.htm ____________________________________________

Bob Ammerman wrote: > My opinion of angle measurements: > > For normal day-to-day use: decimal degrees. I.e.: 15.45 degrees. > > For mathematical, scientific use: radians > > For embedded system use: binary fractions of a circle. EG: 1/256 of a > circle. > > For no conceivable reasonable use: degrees, minutes, seconds. > > Bob Ammerman > RAm Systems > Degrees, minutes, seconds were great for their time. Circumference of the earth about 24,901 statue miles or 21638.3774 nautical miles divide by 360 = 60.1066038 nautical miles by 60 = 1.00177673 nautical miles by 60 = 101.448513 feet Within the accuracy of the instruments it was 1 deg = 60 nm, 1 min = 1 nm and 1 sec = 100 feet Jim ____________________________________________

----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave VanHorn" <spam_OUTdvanhornTakeThisOuTdvanhorn.org> To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <.....piclistKILLspam@spam@mit.edu> Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 11:36 PM Subject: Re: [PIC]:Need help badly > >>> >>>For embedded system use: binary fractions of a circle. EG: 1/256 of a >>>circle. > > That's what I used when I had to work in polar coordinates. > I call them (and any unit created for the programmer's convenience) > Dilberts. I've called them bigrees. Bob Ammerman RAm Systems ____________________________________________

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004, Dave VanHorn wrote: {Quote hidden}> At 12:15 PM 11/26/2004, Peter L. Peres wrote: > >> On Fri, 26 Nov 2004, Rolf wrote: >> >>> Seems like pots are calling kettles black... >>> >>> What is the pin spacing on pretty much all TH components .... 0.1" All >>> PCB's are measured in decimals of inches. 10 pins per inch.... used a >>> bread-board recently? >>> >>> Seems to me that the people in this list should have no problem thinking >>> in decimalised imperial units. ;-) >> >> Except if you are using certain parts from mainland China or ex-USSR which >> are both metric. East Block large (>40 pin) chips used to have insertion >> problems into boards laid out for the imperial system. Same for certain >> long connectors. > > Rounding errors aside, fractional or decimal partials have nothing to do with > wether the main units are imperial or metric. > > 1.95 hogshead, or 2.3 furlongs makes just as much sense as 2/3 Meter or > 1/4 gram. It's just that you are used to seeing it the other way more > often. Yes, it depends on the kind of corncob you have handy and on whether your knife is not sharp enough to divide it into 10 equal parts, so you can manage only 6. Or is it too sharp and you get to 12 parts. Most humans can see 10 fingers on their two hands. So natural human numeration bases would be 2, 5, 10, and 20 if counting the toes too. 2 and 10 are pretty common, 5 was used in some paper tape code I think, now, where does the Imperial dozen come from ? 10+2 ? It is natural to use a fractional base that is a multiple or submultiple of these numeration bases. Decimal simply means the fractional base is 10 or a power threof. 10,5 is 10 5/10. The only difference is the EASE OF USE. Even construction/engineering did not require strange fractions, excepting that base 7 would have been very useful (early approximation of pi = 22/7, still good today for carpentry, landscaping, metal working, and other low precision work). The difference between 22/7 and pi as shown on my calculator is only 0.0012644893 (~0.04%!). And about being used to, I have noticed that many Imperial measures do not start or stop or step in any clearly correlated way (wrt units). For example hat sizes increase in 1 3/4" increments from an arbitrary low value to an arbitrary high value. This seems to indicate that the inches came a long time after the craftsmen used some 'grandfathered' patterns and at some point translated the patterns into inches. This seems to be true for a number of Imperial units used (like wire gauge, rail gauge and And back to metric parts, the metric parts had a pin spacing of 2.5mm instead of 2.54mm. When trying to fit a 2.5mm spaced part in a 2.54mm laid out board, at 40 pins dil, the error for the last pin in a row of 20 (each side) is 0.8mm and is large enough that serious problems occur with manual assembly. Peter ____________________________________________

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004, the madscientist wrote: > the degrees, minutes, seconds, and decimal seconds notation is > definitely very, very annoying and awkward. however i suspect that > those familiar with it found radian based units rather annoying. i must The radian is a mathematical thing. Nobody uses radians outside a lab or computer program or EE calculations. The DMS notation is related to navigation, and navigation and surveying were one and the same for a couple of centuries, long before anybody reinvented the division of a circle into 360 degrees, let alone knew what a minute was. Most calculators have a DMS-DEG-RAD-GRAD conversion built in so it's not so bad. Peter ____________________________________________

SO completly off topic now, but I was just thinking. If you intestines are long enough to go round the earth, how fast does that piece of sweetcorn which comes out the other end the next day have to travel! Justin. Jim Korman wrote: {Quote hidden}> Bob Ammerman wrote: > >> My opinion of angle measurements: >> >> For normal day-to-day use: decimal degrees. I.e.: 15.45 degrees. >> >> For mathematical, scientific use: radians >> >> For embedded system use: binary fractions of a circle. EG: 1/256 of a >> circle. >> >> For no conceivable reasonable use: degrees, minutes, seconds. >> >> Bob Ammerman >> RAm Systems >> > > Degrees, minutes, seconds were great for their time. > > Circumference of the earth about 24,901 statue miles > or 21638.3774 nautical miles > divide by 360 = 60.1066038 nautical miles > by 60 = 1.00177673 nautical miles > by 60 = 101.448513 feet > > Within the accuracy of the instruments it was > 1 deg = 60 nm, 1 min = 1 nm and 1 sec = 100 feet > > Jim > > > ______________________________________________

the madscientist wrote: > it was > interesting none the less, particularly how all the scrap was simply > burned in a huge outdoor furnace, with no attempt to recover any of > the energy or control the emissions at all. I am very surprised by this. Where is this? When I was a kid those sortof cone shaped incinerators with screening on top to burn sawdust waste were everywhere in the northern Sierras of California. I'm thinking of places like Greenville and Quincy. Now the stuff is too valuable to just burn. It can be used for energy, particle board, and sometimes pulp (although often the wrong kind of wood for that in the northern Sierras). Those for whom economic insentives weren't enough were "pursuaded" by pollution laws. > possibly, i had thought that franklin had fought for it. He did advocate for metric, but remember he was also around for a while after the US constitution. Thomas Jefferson even had some of his own ideas about a sensible system of measurement. And as typical of Thomas Jefferson, they were well reasoned out. > i'm not sure > when the units first became available, but i don't doubt the french > were > the first to adopt them officially. Oh, then go look up how the length of the meter was chosen. ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com ____________________________________________

olin_piclist@embedinc.com wrote : > > i'm not sure when the units first became available, but i > > don't doubt the french were the first to adopt them officially. > > Oh, then go look up how the length of the meter was chosen. And for those interested I'll give a source... :-) ISBN 91-1-301008-5 Author : Ken Alder, 2002 Title : "The measure of things: The seven-year odyssey and hidden error that transformed the world." www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0743216768/qid=1101581707/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/103-6661 123-5741407 In short : During the Frech revolution, there was a decision to replace all diffrent local units of measure in France with one common, the "meter". And they decided that one meter shoud be 1 tenth of a million of the distance between the northpool and the equator. Two of the brigthest astronomist and mathematicans of France of that time, Delambre and Méchain, was given the task of measuring the distance from the northpool and the equator, so that the correct length of the "meter" could be calculated. Now, the full length is of course hard to measure, so thay decided to measuer the distance between Dunkerque at the English channel and Barcelona in Spain. And then extrapolating that distance. The method they used was "triangulation", the method that was still used up to a few decades ago. The distance beetween Dunkerque and Barcelona was devided into aprox 70-80 triangles using churches and mountains as the "triangulation points". Now, what is realy interesting in this story, is the accuracy they was able to achieve (this was aprox 200 yars ago...). All three angels in each triangle was measured independant of each other. When they later summed the angels in each triangle they got a sum that was in average just 5-7 ppm (!) from the ideal 180 deg. And this was using manual instruments only. This took aprox 7 years, each single angle in each triangle took a couple of weeks to measure. A much recomended book for anyone intersted in the history of science. Best Regards, Jan-Erik. ____________________________________________

gee, i always just called them "arbs", i.e. arbitrary units. works in many situations, except where you have more than one type of arb which gets confusing fast, particularly for those who know physics and like to do the math on their "units" as well. Dave VanHorn wrote: ---- > That's what I used when I had to work in polar coordinates. > I call them (and any unit created for the programmer's convenience) Dilberts. ------- -- Just the truth Corporate controlled news is white washing, the real motives and aims of heir Bush: www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6895.htm <www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5069215-103677,00.html> www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7369.htm www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7370.htm ____________________________________________

Bob Ammerman wrote: > > IMHO it is ridiculous that GPS's use DMS notation. > Bob Ammerman > RAm Systems Yeah, that might be a rational opinion, but all the boaters out there are all trained in DMS. I am taking a Power Squadron course right now, and it is all DMS. All the charts are in DMS, etc etc. Therefore, I expect the majority of purchasers of GPS units are expecting DMS. You just have to appreciate history. Its like the old joke about my home town: "How many Victorians does it take to change a light bulb?" "21, one to change the light bulb, and twenty to stand around and discuss about how much they liked the old one." David ____________________________________________

agreed! the distance correlations with DMS only apply along the axis of the earth in those directions so it really doesn't correlate to much physically most of the time. even radians would make more sense to me, or more easily used degrees with a decimal fraction. it certainly makes math much easier, and calculators are not always convenient, and it's nice to have some quick idea in your head most of the time even when they are available. this is an example of inertia in a notational system rather than something that was logically considered i suspect. but few manufacturers want to buck convention even when it does make sense. it would be nice to have a choice of units. Bob Ammerman wrote: ------- > > As in, reading your gps display ? > > > > Peter > > IMHO it is ridiculous that GPS's use DMS notation. ------- -- Just the truth Corporate controlled news is white washing, the real motives and aims of heir Bush: www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6895.htm <www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5069215-103677,00.html> www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7369.htm www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7370.htm ____________________________________________

Ok, I give up. [but DMS is still stupid!] Bob Ammerman RAm Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: "Herbert Graf" <mailinglist2KILLspamfarcite.net> To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <.....piclistKILLspam.....mit.edu> Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 2:12 PM Subject: Re: [PIC]:Need help badly {Quote hidden}> On Sat, 2004-11-27 at 09:43 -0500, Bob Ammerman wrote: >> >> >> >> For no conceivable reasonable use: degrees, minutes, seconds. >> > >> > As in, reading your gps display ? >> > >> > Peter >> >> IMHO it is ridiculous that GPS's use DMS notation. > > Well considering most maps used out there have DMS notation I'm > not quite sure what ELSE should be used, DMS seems pretty > obvious to me. TTYL ____________________________________________

----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Ammerman" <EraseMErammermanspam_OUTTakeThisOuTverizon.net> To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <piclistspam_OUTmit.edu> Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 3:57 PM Subject: Re: [PIC]:Need help badly > Ok, I give up. [but DMS is still stupid!] > > Bob Ammerman > RAm Systems DMS is your friend if you're ever humping around in the woods with nothing but a compass and a map. Dead reckoning (on foot, at least) is based in part around the DMS system, and knowing how many "paces per second" your stride is. IIRC my pace count is right around 45 paces/second of latitude (also conveniently 45 paces/100 feet). I suppose you could do it using decimal degrees as well, but trying to compute that in my head would be a little tough. This system translates nicely to GPS, and allows you to go on week-long expeditions on a single set of GPS batteries, by just using the GPS for checking up on your position. Admittedly, the dead reckoning system also uses standard distances, such as miles and km. But these also transfer much better to the DMS system (and human memory). For example: if you're 1 mile off course, this is roughly one minute. To me this is easier than remembering that one mile is 0.0166 degrees. Also, conveniently, 100 feet is almost 1 second, which makes computations easier. So I disagree that it is stupid. Perhaps you mean it is only suited to specialized situations, but that is not the same! {Quote hidden}> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Herbert Graf" <@spam@mailinglist2KILLspamfarcite.net> > To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <KILLspampiclistKILLspammit.edu> > Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 2:12 PM > Subject: Re: [PIC]:Need help badly > > > > On Sat, 2004-11-27 at 09:43 -0500, Bob Ammerman wrote: > >> >> > >> >> For no conceivable reasonable use: degrees, minutes, seconds. > >> > > >> > As in, reading your gps display ? > >> > > >> > Peter > >> > >> IMHO it is ridiculous that GPS's use DMS notation. > > > > Well considering most maps used out there have DMS notation I'm > > not quite sure what ELSE should be used, DMS seems pretty > > obvious to me. TTYL > > ______________________________________________

Robert B. wrote: > DMS is your friend if you're ever humping around in the woods with > nothing but a compass and a map. You must have a pretty fancy compass and an amazing ability to follow a bearing if less than a degree makes any difference to you in the woods. I'm a hike leader with the Appalachian Mountain club, have used map and compass in the woods on a number of occasions, and have even taught it to beginners in formal courses. Plus or minus 1 degree would be amazingly accurate. Most real hiking compasses aren't even marked that accurately, except the silly fancy models some stores try to sell to those who don't know any better. My compass is marked in 5 degree increments, and that's just fine. > Dead reckoning (on foot, at least) > is based in part around the DMS system, and knowing how many "paces > per second" your stride is. Maybe if you live on the plains or stick to pavement. Even on regular trails, you usually just guess your speed in terms of minutes/mile, then use a watch to get a rough idea of how far you probably traveled. Of course this is all out the window when bushwhacking thru sporadically dense vegitation. > IIRC my pace count is right around 45 > paces/second of latitude (also conveniently 45 paces/100 feet). So you're honestly telling me you count paces to measure arc distance travelled!!? > I > suppose you could do it using decimal degrees as well, but trying to > compute that in my head would be a little tough. Even if you did this, it would only work when going north or south, unless you want to do the mental correction for the shortening of longitude depending on latitude. > This system translates nicely to GPS, and allows you to go on week-long > expeditions on a single set of GPS batteries, by just using the GPS > for checking up on your position. OK, but you started out saying DMS was useful with "nothing but a compass and a map". > Admittedly, the dead reckoning system also uses standard distances, > such as miles and km. But these also transfer much better to the DMS > system (and human memory). For example: if you're 1 mile off > course, this is roughly one minute. But what does that tell you, when you've got just a map and compass? "One mile off course" is already what you want. What you really want to know is where you are and where you want to be on the map. From that you set your compass to the bearing to follow. The compass is set by using the lines on the compass and the lines on the map. The units the compass is marked with don't enter in at all except when correcting for magnetic declanation. ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com ____________________________________________

On Sun, 2004-11-28 at 15:57 -0500, Bob Ammerman wrote: > Ok, I give up. [but DMS is still stupid!] > > Bob Ammerman > RAm Systems Well there's alot of stupid out there. My personal favourite is hours, minutes and seconds (which of course is a direct relation to DMS). Most imperial units can be pretty dumb, i.e. the number of feet in a mile. The stupidest is probably our number system, base10 is horrible to deal with, base 16 or base 8 would have been far easier on everybody. TTYL ----------------------------- Herbert's PIC Stuff: http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/ ____________________________________________