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PICList Thread
'[PIC] Free UV erasable and OTP PICs'
2009\03\14@130943 by olin piclist

face picon face
See the image http://www.embedinc.com/temp/c_pics.jpg.  Those are all either
one time programmable or UV erasable PICs that I will shortly get rid of one
way or another.  I'll never use them and don't want to have them taking
space in my storage cabinets.  I've got new PICs to put away and these would
overflow the 100 drawers I have for PICs currently.

If you want any for the price of shipping, follow these directions:

1 - Send me a email telling me what you want.  I'll reply telling you what
part of your request is still available.  The ones that are still available
will be reserved for you for one day.

2 - If you still want whatever has been reserved for you, send me a PDF of a
USPS click and ship mail label.  Fill in your address for the destination
and set the return address to:

 Olin Lathrop
 Embed Inc
 410 Great Road Ste B13
 Littleton, MA  01460

Since up to 2 pounds is the same price, you can just fill that in for the
shipping weight.  Probably the whole pile is only one pound though.

3 - I'll send you the stuff within a few days.

Note that the steps above don't include asking stupid questions about click
and ship, PDFs, OTP PICs, or how to spell UV.  If you can't figure this out,
you're a moron and shouldn't be playing with pointy things like DIP packages
anyway.  If you do something stupid like ask silly questions or use annoying
email format (pretty much anything other than plain text, ASCII, wrapped to
80 columns max) I may just ignore your message.  In any case it will delay
things and more intelligent people will get in ahead of you and the free
stuff may be gone by the time you get your act together.  In case people
listening in think I'm being harsh, this disclaimer is a result of
experience giving away free stuff a week or two ago.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2009\03\14@132019 by Benjamin Grant

flavicon
face
be aware all... "free" means if you can pass Olin's rigorous policy of
"following directions" perfectly you may have a chance at receiving the item
- however only after being berated for following the directions(yes you'll
get yelled at even for following directions appropriately). Note he's
already insinuated buyers are likely "morons" so you are more likely than
not going to be insulted several times before the process is over.  Have
fun.

On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Olin Lathrop <spam_OUTolin_piclistTakeThisOuTspamembedinc.com>wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2009\03\14@150300 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Note he's already insinuated buyers are likely "morons"

Could you please read more carefully before you make incorrect
statements. Olin's offer might be bound to rigid requirements, but he's
the one who offers, so it's his party.

--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2009\03\14@171835 by olin piclist

face picon face
Benjamin Grant wrote:
> be aware all... "free" means if you can pass Olin's rigorous policy of
> "following directions" perfectly

Which should be neither difficult nor onorous for anyone smart enough to
spell PIC.  All I'm asking is for the receipient to pay the shipping, which
I stand by as being reasonable.  I forgot to mention it, but if someone
makes advance arrangement to show up at our office in Littleton MA, they are
welcome to pick thru and take anything that hasn't already been allocated,
without any shipping charges of course.  In fact, there may be other things
they can walk off with that I haven't gone thru the trouble of listing here.
Students sincerely interested in electronics as a possible profession are
particularly encouraged to do this, and won't likely leave with just old
junk I'm trying to ditch.

I wasn't sure last time how well it would work to have people send USPS
click and ship shipping labels, but it worked very well.  Seven people had
no problem doing so, and should all have received their fixer-upper USBProgs
by now.  Several even sent me a message to tell me they received it and to
thank me.

Having the receipient send the shipping label solves a number of problems.
I don't have to worry about getting the address wrong and somehow billing
and collecting money for the shipping.  Every one of seven who sent labels
last time sent them as PDF files, so I dropped the option of sending paper
labels and the associated longer hold times.

> however only after being berated for following the directions(yes
> you'll get yelled at even for following directions
> appropriately).

The directions are designed to minimize my hassle in giving away something
for free, but also to be reasonable for the recipient.  It should be obvious
I'm not making a penny on this.  I could just toss all this stuff, but I'm
happy to spend the extra time to package it up and bring it to the post
office if someone else can get use out of it.  If the directions are
followed, there is no reason to berate anyone.  That's why the directions
are what they are.

> Note he's already insinuated buyers are likely "morons" so you
> are more likely than not going to be insulted several times before
> the process is over.

As I said, this is from experience of a week or two ago when I gave away
other free stuff.  While most people followed the directions, didn't ask
stupid questions, and received the stuff just as I promised in return, some
people were also morons in unexpected and clever ways.  I'd rather
discourage them up front than waste time dealing with them later.  Some of
the gems I got included:

- What is click and ship?

 Exactly what the USPS web site says it is, moron.

- How do I make a PDF of the mail label?

 The same way seven other people did without having to ask.  Does
 mommy know you're playing with the 'puter again?  (For those that
 haven't used click and ship, the USPS web site actually generates
 the PDF for you.  Duh.).

- One person sent a empty email body with the message apparently in
 a attachment.

 if (hassle_level > threshold) screw_this_moron();

 Actually in this case I even sent a message back since I didn't
 notice the attachment and thought there might have been a honest
 fat-finger mistake.  By the time he repeated 3rd grade and learned
 how to use his email client, all free units had been claimed with
 two people on the wait list.  Oh well.  Stupidity has its cost.

> Have fun.

"Sorry, I have no use for one-time programmable or UV erasable PICs.  Thanks
for the offer though."

Why you're welcome.  Have a nice day.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2009\03\14@172018 by Grant Tudor

picon face
I accepted one of Olin's previous PICList offers but when I went to organise
the postage I had a problem with USPS (long story but the bottom line line
was that USPS would not accept my credit card billing address). I emailed
Olin to let him know that I couldn't accept his offer and that he should
pass the item on to someone on the "waiting" list. Olin emailed back
straight away and offered to pay the postage himself which I accepted and
the item arrived a few days later.

People should be careful when they make broad, sweeping statements like:

be aware all... "free" means if you can pass Olin's rigorous policy of
"following directions" perfectly you may have a chance at receiving the item
- however only after being berated for following the directions(yes you'll
get yelled at even for following directions appropriately).

Grant Tudor



On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 6:02 AM, Wouter van Ooijen <.....wouterKILLspamspam@spam@voti.nl> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2009\03\14@190446 by DSELEC

picon face
Two weeks ago I requested and received one of the damaged USB programmers
that Olin made available to the list. His postage-related instructions were
logical and clear. His method is a good way to cover postage cost and avoid
shipping address errors. I received the unit within 3 days of sending Olin
the pdf shipping label. He even included the loose capacitor that was
separated from the board when it was damaged. The board was easy to repair
and, other than the broken cap, in perfect condition.  

It would have been much easier for Olin to just scrap the damaged boards and
avoid the hassle altogether. The fact that he was willing to put forth the
effort to make these items available to others says a lot about him. If you
think it is too much trouble to follow simple instructions, it is your right
to pass on the offer, but the insults are really counterproductive and will
discourage others from following Olin's lead. I, for one, will consider
making a similar offer in the future before tossing unneeded
electronic-related items.  

Dave Siegel

{Original Message removed}

2009\03\14@210607 by Peter Loron

flavicon
face
On Mar 14, 2009, at 2:19 PM, Olin Lathrop wrote:
>
> - One person sent a empty email body with the message apparently in
>  a attachment.
>
>  if (hassle_level > threshold) screw_this_moron();
>
>  Actually in this case I even sent a message back since I didn't
>  notice the attachment and thought there might have been a honest
>  fat-finger mistake.  By the time he repeated 3rd grade and learned
>  how to use his email client, all free units had been claimed with
>  two people on the wait list.  Oh well.  Stupidity has its cost.

As I clearly stated in another post to the list, the "empty message +  
attachment issue" seems to be a problem with how the PIClist mailing  
software interacts with messages that have been signed. The original  
message leaving my machine is all text, no MIME segments, no  
attachments. Testing indicates that this mangling of the message does  
not occur on other mailing lists nor in messages sent directly to  
individuals.

I apologize for the hassle this has apparently caused you (and  
possibly others on the list), and have stopped signing messages sent  
the PIClist.

Thanks for the official "moron" seal of approval, though. Now that I  
have that certified, I'm off to see if I can get some low cost housing  
or whatnot since I'm obviously too stupid to have a job.

-Pete

2009\03\14@211405 by Benjamin Grant

flavicon
face
haha peter while I appreciate your sarcasm I think we can all agree that
your e-mail issues do not diminish your intelligence. Furthermore, my post
was in response to the treatment you received.  I think we can all also
agree anyone who spends such a large percentage of their time berating
others receives little respect from peers in person and feels the need to
assert himself as a pro whilst dealing with amateurs online.  Anyway I saw
what happened before and assure you that it is not you that lost my respect.

On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 9:06 PM, Peter Loron <peterlspamKILLspamstandingwave.org>wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2009\03\15@012649 by Charles Craft

picon face
Not sure how you would prove it one way or the other but do you
always store PICs loose in plastic drawers like the ones in the picture?

Are the chips that robust or do you always make sure to lick your finger,
touch a good ground and then pull the chip out of the tray?

thanks
chuckc

(I chatted briefly with Olin at a Microchip Masters and he didn't bite)  :-)


{Original Message removed}

2009\03\15@014019 by solarwind

picon face
On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 5:26 AM, Charles Craft <.....chuckseaKILLspamspam.....mindspring.com> wrote:
> Not sure how you would prove it one way or the other but do you
> always store PICs loose in plastic drawers like the ones in the picture?
>
> Are the chips that robust or do you always make sure to lick your finger,
> touch a good ground and then pull the chip out of the tray?
>
> thanks
> chuckc
>
> (I chatted briefly with Olin at a Microchip Masters and he didn't bite)  :-)

The chips are pretty damn tough. I rubbed my socks on my carpet on a
dry day and handled the PICs (on purpose, just to see what would
happen). Nothing happened. Everything worked fine. I did this several
times. I also short circuited the chips, applied too much voltage and
so on. They still work perfectly. These chips are tough.

2009\03\15@020031 by Forrest W Christian

flavicon
face
Olin Lathrop wrote:
>  If you can't figure this out,
> you're a moron and shouldn't be playing with pointy things like DIP packages
> anyway.
Sorry, I just have to say, this really hit me funny.  Especially since I
was just recently telling a coworker (at the ISP) how many times I have
had a DIP package stuck in my thumb because I was trying to remove a
defective from a socket without the appropriate tool.   (And no, I'm not
stupid enough to do that anymore - well not usually).

-forrest

2009\03\15@083458 by John Ferrell

face picon face
It worked very well for me as well.

The procedure of emailing a PDF with a prepaid priority label is about as
efficient as one can get. I wish I could do that with everything I order.

As always: If you don't like the deal, don't play the game!

I appreciate the "freebies" and the bargains that come my way on the list.
Before you toss it in the trash please offer it on the list to those of us
who are grateful for the opportunity.

>From my viewpoint the critics are simply part of the list noise level.

John Ferrell  W8CCW

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing." -- Edmund Burke
...."The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other
people's money."
  MARGARET THATCHER
http://DixieNC.US


----- Original Message -----
From: "DSELEC" <EraseMEdselecspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTcomcast.net>
To: "'Microcontroller discussion list - Public.'" <piclistspamspam_OUTmit.edu>
Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 7:04 PM
Subject: RE: [PIC] Free UV erasable and OTP PICs


{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2009\03\15@084432 by olin piclist

face picon face
Charles Craft wrote:
> Not sure how you would prove it one way or the other but do you
> always store PICs loose in plastic drawers like the ones in the
> picture?
>
> Are the chips that robust or do you always make sure to lick your
> finger, touch a good ground and then pull the chip out of the tray?

I've got about 1000 small parts drawers like those for all kinds of parts,
not just PICs.  Some have anti-static black foam or chip carriers in them,
but mostly everything just gets thrown into the drawers loosely.

Keep in mind how static electricity works and how it damages ICs.  There
have to be two conductors at a significantly different potential with
sufficient capacitance between them to store charge.  Then two separate pins
of the IC have to be connected each to one of the two charges.  Then the
resistance has to be so low that the inrush is so high as to blow out the
protection diodes.

Your body can be one of these conductors, but we have a concrete floor here
so that rarely gets to meaningful levels.  If the other side is just a IC
pin, there isn't enough capacitance to cause enough current to do any
damage.  The inside of these drawers are good insulators.  Most of the time
the drawers just sit there for days on end.  Dirt, humidity in the air, and
the fact that the plastic isn't a perfect conductor means there isn't likely
any significant voltage on the inside of a drawer when I reach in to get a
IC.  Even if there is, the total charge would have to be very small.  To
cause a problem, you'd pretty much have to deliberately rub the drawer
against a cat or something, then charge yourself up somehow, then grab a PIC
just right and touch it to the drawer just right.  In practice I have never
felt or seen the slightest hint of a zap when touching something in one of
the drawers, and haven't noticed ICs dying as a result of being put in a
drawer and taken out again.  I do notice a zap in the winter when I take off
a certain synthetic sweater and then touch my metal bookcase that sits on
the concrete floor.  That sweater is a much bigger danger, and I'm careful
to discharge myself after handling it before touching anything else.

Static protection isn't voodoo.  Keep the laws of physics in mind instead of
going by what "everyone says".


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2009\03\15@093636 by Dennis

picon face
I, too, received a free USB programmer from Olin.  Unfortunately, it
took me until the end of this past week to "play" with it.  It took me
about 20 minutes to repair it (the broken-off electrolytic was included
in the package).  Viola!  A very nice, working USB programmer!!

It MUST be stressed, however, that this cost Olin more than just  
time!!  My package arrived in a sturdy shipping box and properly
packed!  All I had to do was send him a PDF of the shipping label.  He
had the cost of the box, packing material, and time to print out and
affix the label, pack the box and deliver to the Post Office.  He also
had the residual cost of the damaged board, which he COULD have sold for
a few bucks and still had happy campers!

I was impressed!  He could have just thrown the board in a padded
envelope, slapped on a label, and be done with it.  The box and packing
made it pretty near "USPS Proof"!  As it was, I received an easily
repaired programmer instead of an envelope full of a trashed circuit board.

Personally, I thought the instructions were clear and easily followed.  
Didn't see a problem.  Remember the "golden rule" - "He who has the gold
makes the rules".  It was Olin's gold, so if you don't like the rules,
don't play!

Just my two cents worth.
Dennis

2009\03\15@100002 by olin piclist

face picon face
Dennis wrote:
> He had the cost of the box

Actually I didn't.  I get them free from the post office.  The only
restriction is that they be used for priority mail.  You can order free
boxes on line in various sizes.  You usually get them in bundles of 25 or 50
unfolded boxes.

People like to malign the US post office, but I've always found them to be a
very efficient and well priced service.  In a few days they can get a PIC
programmer from Massachusetts 4000 miles to a remote village in Alaska or
7000 miles to a tiny island in the middle of the Pacific for well under $10.
And yes, I've actually sent PIC programmers to both those places.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2009\03\15@125630 by peter green

flavicon
face

> The chips are pretty damn tough. I rubbed my socks on my carpet on a
> dry day and handled the PICs (on purpose, just to see what would
> happen). Nothing happened. Everything worked fine. I did this several
> times. I also short circuited the chips, applied too much voltage and
> so on. They still work perfectly. These chips are tough.
>  
Something to remember about static damange. While sometimes you will
kill the chip immediately you can also damange it in subtule ways
causing it to behave almost but not quite right and/or work perfectly
for a while and then die layer.

2009\03\15@125905 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
solarwind wrote:
> The chips are pretty damn tough. I rubbed my socks on my carpet on a
> dry day and handled the PICs (on purpose, just to see what would
> happen). Nothing happened.

You just do not know.

2009\03\15@143542 by solarwind

picon face
On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 11:56 AM, peter green <@spam@plugwashKILLspamspamp10link.net> wrote:
> Something to remember about static damange. While sometimes you will
> kill the chip immediately you can also damange it in subtule ways
> causing it to behave almost but not quite right and/or work perfectly
> for a while and then die layer.

I am aware of that. I did that to one of my Pentium II CPUs a while
ago. But I'm saying that these chips are tougher than most. It was far
easier to damage the 4000 series CMOS chips.

--
solarwind

2009\03\15@144013 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> solarwind wrote:
>> The chips are pretty damn tough. I rubbed my socks on my carpet on a
>> dry day and handled the PICs (on purpose, just to see what would
>> happen). Nothing happened.
>
> You just do not know.

Just got this reply by privat mail (by mistake I guess...) :

>> On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Jan-Erik wrote:

>> > solarwind wrote:
>>> >> The chips are pretty damn tough. I rubbed my socks on my carpet on a
>>> >> dry day and handled the PICs (on purpose, just to see what would
>>> >> happen). Nothing happened.
>> >
>> > You just do not know.
>
> Do not know what asshole?
>
>
>-- solarwind

Sorry, that was unclear.
You do not know if it's damaged or not. You can't tell.

2009\03\15@151631 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Sometimes I wonder if English is not solarwind's native language.  It was
pretty clear to me what you meant.

Here in Arizona, humidity is <20%, and unlike at Olin's office, our floors
are carpeted. The PIC-based test fixture we use gets zapped regularly,
despite the fact that the guys use wrist wraps. We finally had to build
special daughter boards for the PICs to make sure the traces on the main
board don't get peeled off. I myself zapped a few chips and FETs on
especially dry days. I reach for a switch, hear a "zap", and sometimes the
ding/dong/dong/ding of a USB device getting unplugged/plugged in again (I'm
assuming that's the FTDI chip getting confused). Sometimes the problem would
manifest itself right away, and sometimes the PIC/IC would just die for no
apparent reason.

I don't ever recall zapping/destroying a device that was inside of an
enclosure (of any kind -- metal, plastic).

Does anybody know how well the anti-static mats work? It seems that if
you're wearing shoes, their effectiveness would be very marginal.

Vitaliy

2009\03\15@154635 by Jinx

face picon face
>> The chips are pretty damn tough. I rubbed my socks on my carpet on
>> a dry day and handled the PICs (on purpose, just to see what would
>> happen). Nothing happened.
>
> You just do not know.
> > >
> Do not know what asshole?
> > >
> > >
> > >-- solarwind
> >
> > Sorry, that was unclear.
> > You do not know if it's damaged or not. You can't tell.
>
> Sometimes I wonder if English is not solarwind's native language.  It was
> pretty clear to me what you meant.

Me too. You'd have to run every test imaginable on the device to say that
"nothing happened". It's also pretty clear to me what calling J-E names says
about solarwind

2009\03\15@155743 by Picbits Sales

flavicon
face
{Quote hidden}

Indeed.

I went on a course once for antistatic precautions and some of the stuff
they showed you was pretty interesting. Even holding components near
polystyrene cups could damage them.

They may have appeared to work afterwards but could fail a lot earlier. Some
of the scanning microscope images of the static damaged devices (that still
worked) showed pitting on the conductor surfaces after static damage so it
could easily lead to early failure of the device.

And what does this thread have to do with donkeys and holes ? :p

2009\03\15@162456 by Jinx

face picon face


> On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 8:45 PM, Jinx <KILLspamjoecolquittKILLspamspamclear.net.nz> wrote:
> Me too. You'd have to run every test imaginable on the device to say
> that "nothing happened". It's also pretty clear to me what calling J-E names
> says about solarwind
>
> And tell me jerkoff, what does it say about me?

It says you're someone who jumps to an egregious conclusion and makes
sweeping statements without any consideration for details or the unknown,
then abuses anyone who questions that conclusion. You might be surprised
at the number of times you're mentioned in off-list chatter

Companies do not invest in anti-static measures for fun. Static electricity
gets into chips and has unpredictable effects. If I thought a PIC of mine
had been exposed to static the way you zapped it, I'd toss it. Who's to
say that the high voltage didn't make its way to a bit in an SFR and blow
it. Then you spend a wasted day wondering why eg the UART doesn't
work properly

2009\03\15@171503 by cdb

flavicon
face


:: Does anybody know how well the anti-static mats work? It seems
:: that if
:: you're wearing shoes, their effectiveness would be very marginal.

You can buy antistatic shoes/trainers from RS and Farnell, and there
is a liquid antistatic treatment that can be sprayed over concrete and
some carpets.

The only problem with having earthed workbenches and antistatic mats
is when using an isolation transformer to power devices.

Free perm anyone?
--
cdb, RemoveMEcolinTakeThisOuTspambtech-online.co.uk on 16/03/2009

Web presence: http://www.btech-online.co.uk  

Hosted by:  http://www.1and1.co.uk/?k_id=7988359







2009\03\15@173935 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 9:14 PM, cdb <spamBeGonecolinspamBeGonespambtech-online.co.uk> wrote:

> The only problem with having earthed workbenches and antistatic mats
> is when using an isolation transformer to power devices.
>

Now you reached an interesting subject, Colin. So you have two different
type of workbench, one for dealing with PIC/other ESR sensitive components,
and another one for working on PSU for example?

Tamas
--
Rudonix DoubleSaver
http://www.rudonix.com

2009\03\15@181411 by Carlos Marcano

picon face
Please, admins, take actions.

Regards,

Carlos.

2009/3/15 Jinx <TakeThisOuTjoecolquittEraseMEspamspam_OUTclear.net.nz>:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2009\03\15@182106 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Mar 15, 2009, at 2:14 PM, cdb wrote:

> :: Does anybody know how well the anti-static mats work? It seems
> :: that if you're wearing shoes, their effectiveness would be very  
> marginal.

An anti-static floor mat is one piece in a rigorous anti-static  
campaign, and it's not the piece I'd choose first.  I think they're  
mostly for people who can't afford the anti-static floor.  And they're  
somewhat designed for people who have a heel strap and/or anti-static  
chairs (personally, I prefer bare feet, but tPtB tend to frown.)

Don't forget that there are two pieces of the anti-static equation;  
dissipating static charges that have built up, and preventing the  
build-up in the first place.


> The only problem with having earthed workbenches and antistatic mats
> is when using an isolation transformer to power devices.
> Free perm anyone?

An anti-static bench is connected to ground through significant  
resistor; it's not just "earthed."  There is little danger of shock...

I think a lot of the anti-static procedures are close to "scam" in  
nature; a excuse to sell people over-priced equipment and cleaning  
supplies.  Every bit DOES something, but by the time it's all in place  
you've reached a point of diminishing returns where you'd have been  
better off requiring your employees to shave their heads...

BillW

2009\03\15@193349 by cdb

flavicon
face


:: So you have two different
:: type of workbench, one for dealing with PIC/other ESR sensitive
:: components,
:: and another one for working on PSU for example?

For myself no, but I used to work for a company that makes medical
devices and ALL equipment in the tech lab was powered via isolation
transformers.  With an earthed wrist and heel strap (they couldn't get
their heads around antistatic coats and shoes), occasionally touching
a powered part would give a nice sharp nip. Still it was fun watching
a heart pump speed up to 6500 rpm when this happened.

Colin
--
cdb, colinEraseMEspam.....btech-online.co.uk on 16/03/2009

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2009\03\15@201922 by Vitaliy

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Carlos Marcano wrote:
> Please, admins, take actions.

Why? AFAICT, nobody is talking about economic theory.


2009\03\15@204611 by Carlos Marcano

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You are right, Vitaly.

I am sorry to have  posted this onlist, I should have done it offlist.
Please let's not keep rolling this part of the thread, it will just
raise the noise on the list. If anyone feels the need to go on on this
matter, please let me know offlist.

Regards,

Carlos.

2009/3/15 Vitaliy <EraseMEspamspammaksimov.org>:
> Carlos Marcano wrote:
>> Please, admins, take actions.
>
> Why? AFAICT, nobody is talking about economic theory.
>
>
> -

2009\03\16@061022 by Rikard Bosnjakovic

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On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 22:14, cdb <RemoveMEcolinEraseMEspamEraseMEbtech-online.co.uk> wrote:

> The only problem with having earthed workbenches and antistatic mats
> is when using an isolation transformer to power devices.

Would you care to elaborate?

I could take a guess, but I'd rather not.


--
- Rikard - http://bos.hack.org/cv/

2009\03\16@114426 by Sean Breheny

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Colin,

Several things in your description do not add up. The whole point of
an isolation transformer is to prevent electric shock by isolating the
circuit from ground so that TWO points of the circuit would have to
touch a person to cause current to flow.

Moreover, the wrist and heel straps should contain 1Meg resistors to
ground. They should NOT be a hard connection to ground.

Sean


On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 7:33 PM, cdb <RemoveMEcolinspam_OUTspamKILLspambtech-online.co.uk> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2009\03\16@122712 by M. Adam Davis

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I'm wondering if people get the (false) impression that because it's
on an isolated transformer, they can touch the hot parts without
getting zapped.

Which, while terribly funny, is a really, really bad misconception to have.

Of course, if the unit as a whole is completely isolated, and you are
at the same voltage potential as the hot, then sometimes you can touch
it without forming a current path, but nothing is ever 'fully'
isolated, and even when it is, you are never at the same potential
unless you are actively touching it.

An isolated piece of equipment can be at a potential several kV above
or below the environment around it, and even properly isolated
equipment may have current paths that will show up when interacting
with a non-isolated circuit (ie, person).  Recall that even at low
voltages sharp corners will emit electrons, and most conductors will
gather electrons - a fully floating, powered device will eventually
gain or release charge based on a variety of factors, not all of which
are easily controlled.

It's not wise to assume that a power isolated device is 'floating'
(ie, no current paths between it an its environment), and especially
unwise to think that a fully floating powered device is as safe to
work on as an unpowered device.

-Adam

On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 11:44 AM, Sean Breheny <EraseMEshb7spamspamspamBeGonecornell.edu> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>> -

2009\03\16@124641 by Russell McMahon

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Admin comment (fwiw)

As far as I can tell by reading through this thread, TWO emails containing
material unnacceptable for list posting were offlist emails that got copied
to the list by other than the originator. And other 'naughty words' in
response were poetic creations by list members - not originated by the
member being criticised.

The moderation system works reasonably well at keeping onlist content
acceptable. If others want to be added to the list of moderatees so that
they don't accidentally post naughty stuff that people have said to them in
private, please apply offlist and it can be arranged.

If the aim is to get the existing moderatee in deep doo doos then it seems
to be working. But such actions seem to be a bit like kicking a man when
he's down, and not really worthy even of we Westies.
(Gargoyle may even know).

Please to let admins try and sort things out offlist and refrain from
posting private missives and thereby bypassing the in-place system.

Many thinks in anticipation.


              Russell


PS:  FWIW, ESD damage may not produce immediately obvious results, and
sometimes effects may be subtle or nonexistent. But too often to be useful
bad things [tm] do happen. In addition to the odd bit sticking or connection
being completely vapo[u]rised you may see hig lakage conditions, or parts
which run subtly out of spec. While the anti-ESD salemen may on occasion
overhype the problem, its real enough to be taken very seriously.

R

2009\03\16@124643 by Russell McMahon

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> Does anybody know how well the anti-static mats work? It seems that if
> you're wearing shoes, their effectiveness would be very marginal.

Real men (and real women too no doubt) use heel grounders - conductive
strips that go from inside the shoe to the heel to provide  aconductive
path.

  Russell

2009\03\16@131445 by solarwind

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On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 5:10 AM, Rikard Bosnjakovic
<spamBeGonerikard.bosnjakovicSTOPspamspamEraseMEgmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 22:14, cdb <KILLspamcolinspamBeGonespambtech-online.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> The only problem with having earthed workbenches and antistatic mats
>> is when using an isolation transformer to power devices.
>
> Would you care to elaborate?
>
> I could take a guess, but I'd rather not.

I think there could be a huge potential difference between ground and
the negative terminal.

2009\03\16@140733 by Nate Duehr

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Someone feel free to change the subject line to "[TECH] Endless debate on
static discharge" anytime now, please, and get this off of PIC.

Nate

{Original Message removed}

2009\03\16@142814 by olin piclist

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Russell McMahon wrote:
> Please to let admins try and sort things out offlist

That's part of the problem.  People can't see you're doing something.  All
they see is stuff they think warrants a admin response but don't see any.
Eventually they say something about it.  You're not going to change human
nature.  It would be easier and more productive to change your methods.
Back room secrecy and "trust me, we're taking care of it" doesn't fly.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2009\03\18@193937 by Chetan Bhargava

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Thanks Olin,

Microchip sample department should use this procedure to ship samples.  :-)

Chetan Bhargava



On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 10:10 AM, Olin Lathrop <EraseMEolin_piclistspamEraseMEembedinc.com>wrote:

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> -

2009\03\18@200412 by mikecreid

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Does Olin have a brother who is an actor?  House?

He comes to mind when I think of Olin?!?!?!?!
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

{Original Message removed}

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