Post by thread:[PIC] Total Newbie question

I have an idea for a new project and I have zero experience with microcontrollers (I was a physics major) I have programmed before in Java, html, php, C somewhat.... I'm not going to get into the details to what my project actually accomplishes so I'll just get into the nitty gritty technical side of it. Basically my project involves a keyboard, a flash memory card, and a small LCD screen. I want the keyboard to input text and have the text to appear on the small lcd screen, along with other text that is saved from the flash card. What I type will also be saved onto the flash card for future use. >From what I've gathered in the last 24 hours, to do this I need a microcontroller at the center of all these input/outputs. Correct me if I'm wrong but basically I will need a microcontroller that takes in information from a flash card via a flash card controller, and from what I enter in as text. Also the MC will send information to the lcd display controller based on the code I program into it. The program I write for these inputs/outputs rests in the physical microcontroller and can be installed via a programmer and basic/c compiler. So if I am right thus far, here are my questions.. 1) Can I get all this integrated into a board? I have a feeling that I can because I have seen some however not to the specific LCD that I want. I want a larger one than what is available. 2) If I do buy an LCD, do the controllers usually handle C/basic code or assembly only? What exactly goes into telling an LCD what to display? Does the manufacturer give specific codes in assembler or C for the device? Also, is this the same case with the flash reader? Do most flash readers/writers that takes in say assembly? How exactly does do these deices all come together with the microcontroller? 3) What will be the biggest hurdle with this device? 4) Any good resources on the net on learning how to build this thing? I would really appreciate everyone's feedback on this, I understand my knowledge level is atrocious but I would really like to start this project. Gotta start from somewhere... -- View this message in context: www.nabble.com/Total-Newbie-question-tp15450998p15450998.html Sent from the PIC - [PIC] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

On 13/02/2008, Harrison <spam_OUTmattownTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote: [...] > Gotta start from somewhere... As I understand it you are eager to start off hacking the LCD-module immediately. However, I *strongly* recommend you to start at the very beginning. Starting off with microcontrollers is usually a pretty big leap, so I really recommend you to learn how to walk before you run. Learning assembler before embarking with C is often a useful advice, that way you will learn the somewhat hard gotchas with could be pretty frustrating to handle if you don't know what happens "under the hood", that is - if you go for C-code at a start. Learn assembler and how do blink a LED using your microcontroller. Pretty boring, but that will be enough for a start. This way, you will get dirty without hurting yourself. There are a lot of tutorials on the net, but most of them (all?) are for the now deprecated PIC16F84-device, and 99% of the tutorials teach how to code with absolute adressing. While absolute adressing itself is fine for small and non-scaleable projects, it's a real braindead method for larger projects (such as the one you are describing). For that, the relocatable way is the way to do. If you are into books, I heartily recommend "The quintessential PIC microcontroller" by Sid Katzen. Buy, or borrow, it, read page by page atleast a couple of chapters, and then you will be able to start off by diving down the hardware. You will also need a hardware programmer. That is, a device that transfer your code (compiled C-code or assembler, or basic or whatever your preference is) into the microcontroller, making it able to run the code. There are zillions of programmers available, but a good start is the Wisp648 (made by Wouter van Ooijen on this mailing list). It's cheap and easy to use. Also, Wouter has written a very good FAQ about PICs, so you might want to start there as well: http://www.voti.nl/picfaq/index.html I could have missed some gaps, but I'm sure someone else gladly will fill it in. -- - Rikard - http://bos.hack.org/cv/

> 1) Can I get all this integrated into a board? It can be integrated on one PCB. I can't say whether *you* will be able to do that. > 2) If I do buy an LCD, do the controllers usually handle > C/basic code or assembly only? The controller does not handle a language, it is controlled by juggling its interface pins. how you do that is up to you. In some cases the manufacturer might provide examples. But you did not specify the type of LCD (HD44780-style character? small graphic? VGA type?). > What exactly goes into telling an LCD what to display? depends on the LCD. the datasheet is your bible.. > Also, is this the > same case with the flash reader? I have no experience with flash cards, but it will depend on the type (MMC seems to be popular?). Plenty of code examples all over the www. > How exactly does > do these deices all come together with the microcontroller? connected by copper wires. seriously, if you need to ask both this and about the programming, you are in for a big challenge! > 3) What will be the biggest hurdle with this device? your experience in electronics and programming > 4) Any good resources on the net on learning how to build this thing? you will have to learn electronics and programming, lots of resources for that. but you should be ready to spend a few years. Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

Hello Newbie > 1) Can I get all this integrated into a board ? Certainly > 2) If I do buy an LCD, do the controllers usually handle C/basic > code or assembly only? The LCD deals only with electrical signals. It doesn't know how those signals are generated, so you can use any code you like > What exactly goes into telling an LCD what to display ? Does > the manufacturer give specific codes in assembler or C for the > device ? Not as such. As before, you need only interface with the LCD electrically, not in code. AFAIK all off-the-shelf alpha-numeric (16x2, 20x4 etc) LCDs are based primarily on the ASCII character set (usually > 127 are Japanese) with 8 RAM-based redefinable characters. Character ROMs are also in some graphic or mixed- mode LCDs Basically you send the LCD the ASCII code and it displays the character at the current or specified cursor location. The only things the LCD responds to are the correct signals and timing > Also, is this the same case with the flash reader? Do most flash > readers/writers that takes in say assembly ? Have no experience with flash (have used a lot of other memory types) and the principle is always the same. Send the memory an address and data. You may have to jump through a couple more hoops with a flash card but it's still easy enough Pretty much like the LCD, except you can see what you just "stored" > How exactly does do these devices all come together with the > microcontroller? Well, that's where you need to sit down with some datasheets, and pin-out diagrams. You can save a lot of time by deciding what you're going to use before building anything. In most cases it doesn't hurt to initially over-spec the micro so you have some wiggle room for I/O, speed or functions > 3) What will be the biggest hurdle with this device? Getting started, and that wasn't meant to be a platitude > 4) Any good resources on the net on learning how to build this > thing? Heaps. What you need first is a plan of action, including actual devices, power supply requirements, amount of data, speed etc > I would really appreciate everyone's feedback on this If you ask the right questions you'll get plenty > I understand my knowledge level is atrocious <social worker hat on> No no. It's nascent

At 03:54 AM 2/13/2008, you wrote: {Quote hidden}>I have an idea for a new project and I have zero experience with >microcontrollers (I was a physics major) I have programmed before in Java, >html, php, C somewhat.... > >I'm not going to get into the details to what my project actually >accomplishes so I'll just get into the nitty gritty technical side of it. > >Basically my project involves a keyboard, a flash memory card, and a small >LCD screen. I want the keyboard to input text and have the text to appear on >the small lcd screen, along with other text that is saved from the flash >card. What I type will also be saved onto the flash card for future use. > > >From what I've gathered in the last 24 hours, to do this I need a >microcontroller at the center of all these input/outputs. Correct me if I'm >wrong but basically I will need a microcontroller that takes in information >from a flash card via a flash card controller, and from what I enter in as >text. Also the MC will send information to the lcd display controller based >on the code I program into it. > >The program I write for these inputs/outputs rests in the physical >microcontroller and can be installed via a programmer and basic/c compiler. > >So if I am right thus far, here are my questions.. > >1) Can I get all this integrated into a board? I have a feeling that I can >because I have seen some however not to the specific LCD that I want. I want >a larger one than what is available. Larger in pixels or size or both? Larger LCD modules typically don't have the controller on board-- you have to provide it or pick a microcontroller or a microprocessor with an on-board controller. Often that kind of micro will not have on-board flash for the program memory, so you might have to allow for a relatively wide bus involving a lot of pins going to one or more flash chips for program memory storage. >2) If I do buy an LCD, do the controllers usually handle C/basic code or >assembly only? What exactly goes into telling an LCD what to display? Does >the manufacturer give specific codes in assembler or C for the device? Also, >is this the same case with the flash reader? Do most flash readers/writers >that takes in say assembly? How exactly does do these deices all come >together with the microcontroller? The LCD module manufacturer, if they provide a controller, will tell you what chip they use, and you can refer to the data sheet for that chip. If you are using an on-chip controller, you have to configure it to talk to the LCD. Maybe you can scab some code off of the net for it. Maybe you can integrate it and maybe it will work well enough. Maybe you can get sample code with an eval board that works well enough. >3) What will be the biggest hurdle with this device? Hard to tell where the hurdles will be for you. Have you done any hardware design? Software wise, getting the various bits working, and working together and if you need a file system on the flash card, getting that working could be challenging. It might be a good idea to avoid anything that involves your system being a USB host.. >4) Any good resources on the net on learning how to build this thing? I suggest you start with an evaluation board that has a relatively powerful micro (eg. ARM7), a flash card socket, and the LCD you want on board, and has code (probably in C) that you can modify, and an easily installed free toolchain. This will maximize your chances for success at a fairly reasonable cost (should be less than $500, I'd guess) and in a short time. Just buying a QVGA or larger LCD, the controller, micro, etc. and making a proto board would probably set you back something approaching that much (although you'd learn a lot in the process). If you require a file system on the flash card, look for sample code for that to be included. You don't *need* a controller for some flash cards (SPI is guaranteed to be present on some types) but it's relatively slow if you don't use a more parallel interface. You can always do a cost-reduction redesign if you want to make lots of whatever these things are.. first thing is to get it going. >I would really appreciate everyone's feedback on this, I understand my >knowledge level is atrocious but I would really like to start this project. >Gotta start from somewhere... Best regards, Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" .....speffKILLspam@spam@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Harrison wrote: {Quote hidden}> I have an idea for a new project and I have zero experience with > microcontrollers (I was a physics major) I have programmed before in Java, > html, php, C somewhat.... > > I'm not going to get into the details to what my project actually > accomplishes so I'll just get into the nitty gritty technical side of it. > > Basically my project involves a keyboard, a flash memory card, and a small > LCD screen. I want the keyboard to input text and have the text to appear on > the small lcd screen, along with other text that is saved from the flash > card. What I type will also be saved onto the flash card for future use. > > >From what I've gathered in the last 24 hours, to do this I need a > microcontroller at the center of all these input/outputs. Correct me if I'm > wrong but basically I will need a microcontroller that takes in information > from a flash card via a flash card controller, and from what I enter in as > text. Also the MC will send information to the lcd display controller based > on the code I program into it. > > The program I write for these inputs/outputs rests in the physical > microcontroller and can be installed via a programmer and basic/c compiler. > > So if I am right thus far, here are my questions.. > > 1) Can I get all this integrated into a board? I have a feeling that I can > because I have seen some however not to the specific LCD that I want. I want > a larger one than what is available. > > 2) If I do buy an LCD, do the controllers usually handle C/basic code or > assembly only? What exactly goes into telling an LCD what to display? Does > the manufacturer give specific codes in assembler or C for the device? Also, > is this the same case with the flash reader? Do most flash readers/writers > that takes in say assembly? How exactly does do these deices all come > together with the microcontroller? > > 3) What will be the biggest hurdle with this device? > > 4) Any good resources on the net on learning how to build this thing? > > I would really appreciate everyone's feedback on this, I understand my > knowledge level is atrocious but I would really like to start this project. > Gotta start from somewhere... > The flash memory card will be the tough one, but it has been done several times by folks on the PIClist. None of what you need is outside the range of a PIC. In fact, even a PIC16F877A could probably do the whole thing, with the assistance of some outside RAM, like a RAMTRON I2C memory to handle the 512-byte buffer needed for the SD card. The LCD display, such as a 4-line 24-char type (my favorite) can snap ONTO a PCB. I do this so that parts and ICs can be mounted UNDER it. That would make the whole thing slightly larger than the size of the keyboard, whatever that entails. Again, LCD displays are simply bit-banging, and can be done in any language, from MPASM to C or Pascal. --Bob

If I may, I have a question about the book, "The quintessential PIC Microcontroller." In the Amazon review, the book is stated as offering a serious study of the PIC, and is not necessarily for the hobbyist. I'm a professional electronics technician as well as a hobbyist. I have no issue with building anything hardware related, but my programming skills as well as understanding the inner workings of a microcontroller are lacking. I've already done a few "Hello World" experiments with blinking LEDs, and wish to learn something a bit more complex, such as coding a digital alarm clock. Would this book lead me in the proper direction, or might I be better off taking a C language course and peruse the Microchip datasheets for my PIC of choice? I have a Pickit2 programmer, and am familiar with ICSP programming techniques from prior projects where I've programmed the chip from a provided hex or asm file. Thanks for any assistance. Joe > If you are into books, I heartily recommend "The quintessential PIC > microcontroller" by Sid Katzen. Buy, or borrow, it, read page by page > atleast a couple of chapters, and then you will be able to start off > by diving down the hardware. > >

Thanks, Rikard. Since it's a rather expensive book, I like to know others' opinions. I hate to spend that much money on a book that will only collect dust. I like your use of the old CD Drive for a chassis, but you do need a nice looking panel to pretty things up. :-) Perhaps I'll add this book to my list of things to do with my tax refund. Regards, Joe Rikard Bosnjakovic wrote: {Quote hidden}> On 13/02/2008, Joe Bento <EraseMEjosephspam_OUTTakeThisOuTkirtland.com> wrote: > >> If I may, I have a question about the book, "The quintessential PIC >> Microcontroller." In the Amazon review, the book is stated as offering >> a serious study of the PIC, and is not necessarily for the hobbyist. >> I'm a professional electronics technician as well as a hobbyist. >> > > I'll have myself as an example. The book helped me go from "know > nothing about PIC or microcontrollers" to "be able to make cool > projects". > > After reading the book, I made this project: > http://bos.hack.org/hacks/pokerclock/ > > And that project is my first PIC-project. > > >

Hi Newbie I own a small/tiny company with a partner now for seven years with no debt except for our building. ($9M last yr revenue and 23 employees) We were lucky enough/able get going with credit cards a wing nut and a prayer. Whilst we never had a prayer of getting any money from a bunch of MBAs I also didn't want to work for a bunch of blow dried smart arses that had never built anything in their life except maybe a pine box derby car. I did try to do a start company up during the mid nineties/start of the dot com boom using VCs. I will never forget demonstrating a piece of hardware, a working prototype that was very finished. (There are now several successful versions of this product on the market) One of the VC/dot com wonder boys that was in the process of losing billions for his investors looked straight at me as said "well this is not the internet". I said I could go back through my presentation but I don't recall ever saying that it was "the internet" I did say that it does connect to the internet. This boy genius said that companies that make hard ware are dead.............I suppose he didn't fund the IPod either. My old boss I used to work for at another company is now a partner in a VC firm on Sand Hill road. We were talking at mutual a friend's wedding a while back and I asked him for some tips about acquiring venture capital for a very capital intensive project I have in mind. The short story of what I took away from his counsel was this. When you pitch your idea it should be good enough that VCs are competing to give you money..........if you have to beg someone to give you money then you will only end up selling your soul for a bowl of porridge. You need to structure a deal where you are still in control............ownership is not necessarily control.....the Ford Family owns very little Ford stock but they effectively control the company.) Make damn sure when you do take "the money" that you ask for enough to get the product to market. If you have to come back with your hat in your hand once again the devil will own your soul. Also whilst they do care if the concept will work many entrepreneurs like my early self think that if the product works great and fulfils a market need then that makes it a good idea to VCs, It takes a team to get a product to market and they will care more about your team that you can assemble than about a working prototype. A smart energetic kid with out a seasoned team is a smart energetic kid with no experience. My old boss would say that you gotta ask your self do I want to send this kid to school with my money? Not all VCs are young and dumb and many like my old boss are very smart and they offer lots of good counsel but they do know how to structure a deal so that at the first sign of trouble you now work for them instead of them providing funding for "your" company. Does that make sense? I also know many startups that failed precisely because they had money up front. Yes there are capital intensive projects that need loads of cash up front but many do not need a lot of cash up front. If you have no money then it forces you to be creative. If at all possible I would do the route that my partner and I took. Make a product that works and start selling it now. Live cheap as possible and take the money from those early sales to improve the product. Listen closely to your customers they will tell you what improvements they want and how it should work. (no market research is as good as joe customer telling you what he likes and or hates about your product if you have to pretend you hate your boss on the phone with your customers and let them vent this is pure marketing gold!) With out money you are forced to be disciplined. You will learn quickly when you are making a mistake and how to become comfortable making tough decisions that business/running a company requires in the long run. I have a meeting. Best Regards, Phillip Coiner, Chief Technology Officer GPS Source, Inc. 64 N. Mission Drive Pueblo West, Co 81007 Phone: 719.510.4552 E-mail: KILLspampcoinerKILLspamgpssource.com cid:RemoveMEimage001.jpgTakeThisOuT01C76FB5.FC0AD300 Your source for quality GNSS Networking Solutions and Design Services {Original Message removed}

Another thing to look out for, are those venture capitalists whose purpose is to deliberately "fail" the business. These people want your business to fail, and they want it to fail in such a way that they can maximize the writeoffs. I was astonished at what lengths they would go to, to locate an investment that they knew would fail. --Bob Axtell Phillip Coiner wrote: {Quote hidden}> Hi Newbie > I own a small/tiny company with a partner now for seven years with no debt > except for our building. ($9M last yr revenue and 23 employees) > We were lucky enough/able get going with credit cards a wing nut and a > prayer. > Whilst we never had a prayer of getting any money from a bunch of MBAs I > also didn't want to work for a bunch of blow dried smart arses that had > never built anything in their life except maybe a pine box derby car. > > I did try to do a start company up during the mid nineties/start of the dot > com boom using VCs. > I will never forget demonstrating a piece of hardware, a working prototype > that was very finished. (There are now several successful versions of this > product on the market) > One of the VC/dot com wonder boys that was in the process of losing billions > for his investors looked straight at me as said "well this is not the > internet". > I said I could go back through my presentation but I don't recall ever > saying that it was "the internet" I did say that it does connect to the > internet. > This boy genius said that companies that make hard ware are > dead.............I suppose he didn't fund the IPod either. > > My old boss I used to work for at another company is now a partner in a VC > firm on Sand Hill road. > We were talking at mutual a friend's wedding a while back and I asked him > for some tips about acquiring venture capital for a very capital intensive > project I have in mind. > The short story of what I took away from his counsel was this. > When you pitch your idea it should be good enough that VCs are competing to > give you money..........if you have to beg someone to give you money then > you will only end up selling your soul for a bowl of porridge. > You need to structure a deal where you are still in > control............ownership is not necessarily control.....the Ford Family > owns very little Ford stock but they effectively control the company.) > Make damn sure when you do take "the money" that you ask for enough to get > the product to market. > If you have to come back with your hat in your hand once again the devil > will own your soul. > Also whilst they do care if the concept will work many entrepreneurs like my > early self think that if the product works great and fulfils a market need > then that makes it a good idea to VCs, It takes a team to get a product to > market and they will care more about your team that you can assemble than > about a working prototype. A smart energetic kid with out a seasoned team is > a smart energetic kid with no experience. My old boss would say that you > gotta ask your self do I want to send this kid to school with my money? > > Not all VCs are young and dumb and many like my old boss are very smart and > they offer lots of good counsel but they do know how to structure a deal so > that at the first sign of trouble you now work for them instead of them > providing funding for "your" company. > Does that make sense? > > I also know many startups that failed precisely because they had money up > front. > Yes there are capital intensive projects that need loads of cash up front > but many do not need a lot of cash up front. > If you have no money then it forces you to be creative. > If at all possible I would do the route that my partner and I took. > Make a product that works and start selling it now. > Live cheap as possible and take the money from those early sales to improve > the product. > Listen closely to your customers they will tell you what improvements they > want and how it should work. (no market research is as good as joe > customer telling you what he likes and or hates about your product if you > have to pretend you hate your boss on the phone with your customers and let > them vent this is pure marketing gold!) > With out money you are forced to be disciplined. > You will learn quickly when you are making a mistake and how to become > comfortable making tough decisions that business/running a company requires > in the long run. > I have a meeting. > > > > Best Regards, > > Phillip Coiner, Chief Technology Officer > GPS Source, Inc. > 64 N. Mission Drive > > Pueblo West, Co 81007 > Phone: 719.510.4552 > E-mail: spamBeGonepcoinerspamBeGonegpssource.com > > cid:TakeThisOuTimage001.jpgEraseMEspam_OUT01C76FB5.FC0AD300 > Your source for quality GNSS Networking Solutions and Design Services > > > > {Original Message removed}

yeah...I've worked there before. Somedays I wonder if I still am. Same stupidty, different place. Bob Axtell <RemoveMEengineerTakeThisOuTcotse.net> wrote: Another thing to look out for, are those venture capitalists whose purpose is to deliberately "fail" the business. These people want your business to fail, and they want it to fail in such a way that they can maximize the writeoffs. I was astonished at what lengths they would go to, to locate an investment that they knew would fail. --Bob Axtell Phillip Coiner wrote: {Quote hidden}> Hi Newbie > I own a small/tiny company with a partner now for seven years with no debt > except for our building. ($9M last yr revenue and 23 employees) > We were lucky enough/able get going with credit cards a wing nut and a > prayer. > Whilst we never had a prayer of getting any money from a bunch of MBAs I > also didn't want to work for a bunch of blow dried smart arses that had > never built anything in their life except maybe a pine box derby car. > > I did try to do a start company up during the mid nineties/start of the dot > com boom using VCs. > I will never forget demonstrating a piece of hardware, a working prototype > that was very finished. (There are now several successful versions of this > product on the market) > One of the VC/dot com wonder boys that was in the process of losing billions > for his investors looked straight at me as said "well this is not the > internet". > I said I could go back through my presentation but I don't recall ever > saying that it was "the internet" I did say that it does connect to the > internet. > This boy genius said that companies that make hard ware are > dead.............I suppose he didn't fund the IPod either. > > My old boss I used to work for at another company is now a partner in a VC > firm on Sand Hill road. > We were talking at mutual a friend's wedding a while back and I asked him > for some tips about acquiring venture capital for a very capital intensive > project I have in mind. > The short story of what I took away from his counsel was this. > When you pitch your idea it should be good enough that VCs are competing to > give you money..........if you have to beg someone to give you money then > you will only end up selling your soul for a bowl of porridge. > You need to structure a deal where you are still in > control............ownership is not necessarily control.....the Ford Family > owns very little Ford stock but they effectively control the company.) > Make damn sure when you do take "the money" that you ask for enough to get > the product to market. > If you have to come back with your hat in your hand once again the devil > will own your soul. > Also whilst they do care if the concept will work many entrepreneurs like my > early self think that if the product works great and fulfils a market need > then that makes it a good idea to VCs, It takes a team to get a product to > market and they will care more about your team that you can assemble than > about a working prototype. A smart energetic kid with out a seasoned team is > a smart energetic kid with no experience. My old boss would say that you > gotta ask your self do I want to send this kid to school with my money? > > Not all VCs are young and dumb and many like my old boss are very smart and > they offer lots of good counsel but they do know how to structure a deal so > that at the first sign of trouble you now work for them instead of them > providing funding for "your" company. > Does that make sense? > > I also know many startups that failed precisely because they had money up > front. > Yes there are capital intensive projects that need loads of cash up front > but many do not need a lot of cash up front. > If you have no money then it forces you to be creative. > If at all possible I would do the route that my partner and I took. > Make a product that works and start selling it now. > Live cheap as possible and take the money from those early sales to improve > the product. > Listen closely to your customers they will tell you what improvements they > want and how it should work. (no market research is as good as joe > customer telling you what he likes and or hates about your product if you > have to pretend you hate your boss on the phone with your customers and let > them vent this is pure marketing gold!) > With out money you are forced to be disciplined. > You will learn quickly when you are making a mistake and how to become > comfortable making tough decisions that business/running a company requires > in the long run. > I have a meeting. > > > > Best Regards, > > Phillip Coiner, Chief Technology Officer > GPS Source, Inc. > 64 N. Mission Drive > > Pueblo West, Co 81007 > Phone: 719.510.4552 > E-mail: pcoinerEraseME.....gpssource.com > > cid:EraseMEimage001.jpg01C76FB5.FC0AD300 > Your source for quality GNSS Networking Solutions and Design Services > > > > {Original Message removed}