Post by thread:[PICLIST] Problems programming PIC16F628

We have recently migrated from PIC16C622A to PIC16F628. Yesterday we programmed 500 parts (F628) using a Picstart Plus with FW 2.30 / MPLAB 5.30, with the same setup we normally program C622 with (changed device in MPLAB ofcourse). All parts are codeprotected during programming. Today we started testing the PC boards that came from production, but we're experiencing device failures, on about every 10th device. I tried reprogramming the devices which failed during test, and most works perfectly after a reprogram... I then tried my development setup, with another Picstart Plus, programmed 25 devices without codeprotection, which where all programmed "successfully" according to Picstart Plus... then I did a "verify" on each device, and 4 out of the 25 failed! Seemed they just read out random data. Anyone experienced the same? Another thing; 16F628 is very slow to program in the Picstart Plus compared to 16C622A, probably because of the flashmemory instead of EPROM.. Will Promate be able to program them faster? Regards Jacob Blichfeldt spam_OUTjacobTakeThisOuTblichfeldt.dk http://www.blichfeldt.dk -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email .....listservKILLspam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

Jacob Blichfeldt wrote: >We have recently migrated from PIC16C622A to PIC16F628. Yesterday we programmed 500 parts (F628) using a Picstart Plus with FW 2.30 / MPLAB 5.30, with the same setup we normally program C622 with (changed device in MPLAB ofcourse). All parts are codeprotected during programming. > >Today we started testing the PC boards that came from production, but we're experiencing device failures, on about every 10th device. I tried reprogramming the devices which failed during test, and most works perfectly after a reprogram... ....... Jacob, better contact Microchip immediately. Just yell "500 parts", and they should give you their undivided attention. It is their parts and their tools. - danM =========== -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email listservKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

We have recently migrated from PIC16C622A to PIC16F628. Yesterday we programmed 500 parts (F628) using a Picstart Plus with FW 2.30 / MPLAB 5.30, with the same setup we normally program C622 with (changed device in MPLAB ofcourse). All parts are codeprotected during programming. Today we started testing the PC boards that came from production, but we're experiencing device failures, on about every 10th device. I tried reprogramming the devices which failed during test, and most works perfectly after a reprogram... I then tried my development setup, with another Picstart Plus, programmed 25 devices without codeprotection, which where all programmed "successfully" according to Picstart Plus... then I did a "verify" on each device, and 4 out of the 25 failed! Seemed they just read out random data. Anyone experienced the same behavior? Another thing; 16F628 is very slow to program in the Picstart Plus compared to 16C622A, probably because of the flashmemory instead of EPROM.. Will Promate be able to program them faster? And is it possible to program more than one device at a time? Regards Jacob Blichfeldt .....jacobKILLspam.....blichfeldt.dk http://www.blichfeldt.dk -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email EraseMElistservspam_OUTTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

At 12:46 PM 8/3/01 -0400, you wrote: >Jacob, better contact Microchip immediately. Just yell "500 parts", >and they should give you their undivided attention. It is their >parts and their tools. Pictstart+ is "Not a production programmer" so don't get too snooty, but 10% bad is inexcusable. Did you do the Vpp fix if it was updated from an earlier version? Best regards, =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speffspam_OUTinterlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com Contributions invited->The AVR-gcc FAQ is at: http://www.bluecollarlinux.com =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email @spam@listservKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

Spehro Pefhany wrote: >At 12:46 PM 8/3/01 -0400, you wrote: > >>Jacob, better contact Microchip immediately. Just yell "500 parts", >>and they should give you their undivided attention. It is their >>parts and their tools. > >Pictstart+ is "Not a production programmer" so don't get too snooty, >but 10% bad is inexcusable. Did you do the Vpp fix if it was updated >from an earlier version? > Shoot, I'd get pretty snooty with 500 parts and all in-family tools. [however, I think employment of "panic" might be more effective]. Besides, even if not production, it's likely they have been both programmed and are being used at the same Vcc and temperature. [?????? you better support me on this Jacob ;-)]. - danM ============= -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email KILLspamlistservKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

Dan Michaels wrote: > >Besides, even if not production, it's likely they have been both >programmed and are being used at the same Vcc and temperature. Is verification at different Vcc levels the only distinction between a production programmer and a development programmer? Regards, Bob _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email RemoveMElistservTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

> Spehro Pefhany wrote: > >At 12:46 PM 8/3/01 -0400, you wrote: > > > >>Jacob, better contact Microchip immediately. Just yell "500 parts", > >>and they should give you their undivided attention. It is their > >>parts and their tools. It's not just 500 parts.. we only just programmed 500 so far. We have 6000 devices to be ship in the next couple of month. > >Pictstart+ is "Not a production programmer" so don't get too snooty, > >but 10% bad is inexcusable. Did you do the Vpp fix if it was updated > >from an earlier version? Now this sounds interesting. What is the "Vpp fix"? One programmer was upgraded from FW1.5, the other from 2.0. > Shoot, I'd get pretty snooty with 500 parts and all in-family tools. > [however, I think employment of "panic" might be more effective]. I'm actually a bit worried.. Sending out products where some devices may have random biterrors is not really "a good thing" :) > Besides, even if not production, it's likely they have been both > programmed and are being used at the same Vcc and temperature. > [?????? you better support me on this Jacob ;-)]. Yep, that's true. Temperature is the same, and the PIC is powered from a 78L05. I contacted our local distributor today, which called a Microchip office, but I got exactly the answer I expected... "Picstart + is not recommended for production, use Promate instead".. I then pointed out that having a development programmer that caused malfunction in my firmware isn't really optimal... Regards Jacob Blichfeldt TakeThisOuTjacobEraseMEspam_OUTblichfeldt.dk http://www.blichfeldt.dk -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email RemoveMElistservTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

At 09:48 PM 8/3/01 +0200, you wrote: >Now this sounds interesting. What is the "Vpp fix"? One programmer was upgraded from FW1.5, the other from 2.0. MPLAB Help->Picstart Help->Picstart+ Vpp adjustment (near the bottom) Required for Rev. 7 or lower. The 1.5 certainly sounds suspicious, not sure about the other one. Interesting that you are using two programmers, I wonder if there is any correlation. Best regards, =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speffEraseME.....interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com Contributions invited->The AVR-gcc FAQ is at: http://www.bluecollarlinux.com =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email EraseMElistservmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

> At 09:48 PM 8/3/01 +0200, you wrote: > > >Now this sounds interesting. What is the "Vpp fix"? One programmer was > upgraded from FW1.5, the other from 2.0. > > MPLAB Help->Picstart Help->Picstart+ Vpp adjustment (near the bottom) > Required for Rev. 7 or lower. Can the revision number be identified on the back? Assy#? In that case, the FW1.5 programmer is R11, and the FW2.0 is R13.. > The 1.5 certainly sounds suspicious, not sure about the other one. > Interesting that you are using two > programmers, I wonder if there is any correlation. I have problems using both programmers, on 2 different PCs. Regards Jacob Blichfeldt RemoveMEjacobEraseMEEraseMEblichfeldt.dk http://www.blichfeldt.dk -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email RemoveMElistservspam_OUTKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

Jacob.B wrote: ......... > >> Besides, even if not production, it's likely they have been both >> programmed and are being used at the same Vcc and temperature. >> [?????? you better support me on this Jacob ;-)]. > >Yep, that's true. Temperature is the same, and the PIC is powered from a 78L05. > >I contacted our local distributor today, which called a Microchip office, but I got exactly the answer I expected... "Picstart + is not recommended for production, use Promate instead".. I then pointed out that having a development programmer that caused malfunction in my firmware isn't really optimal... > Well, this was exactly my point. It sounded like you simply programmed them, and tested them in-house - not even in the field with varying Vcc and temperature conditions - and some failed already. I should think a "properly-designed" development programmer should pass this test - WITHOUT a load of bullshit coming back from the manufacturer. For crying out loud already ....... [US slang]. OTOH, older programmers/firmware may not set all the programming parameters optimally for the newer chips. I believe melabs had to do some fiddling with their EPIC s.w. because of this - lengthened the delays, IIRC. Also, you might check that your Vpp voltage is correct. Regarding differences between production and protoyping, besides using hi/lo Vcc tests ....... my EPIC is a prototyper, but they actually program the chip on one pass, testing the ROM cells for proper values as they go, then go back and set the code protect bits at the end. Some prototyper programmers may not do this, so you may not know whether you got the correct data into the cells when doing code protect. - danM =============== -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email RemoveMElistservTakeThisOuTspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

Jacob Blichfeldt wrote: > > > Spehro Pefhany wrote: > > >At 12:46 PM 8/3/01 -0400, you wrote: > > > > > >>Jacob, better contact Microchip immediately. Just yell "500 parts", > > >>and they should give you their undivided attention. It is their > > >>parts and their tools. > > It's not just 500 parts.. we only just programmed 500 so far. We have 6000 devices to be ship in the next couple of month. Jacob, try programming a test batch twice... Also check the temperature when the chip is programmed and used, with flash this can be as temperature sensitive as voltage sensitive, and even the production programmers don't test temperature options. Maybe try programming a batch in a hotter or colder environment, and examine your current temperature differential between where you are programming them and where you are using them. :o) -Roman -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList EraseMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestspamspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu

At 10:50 PM 8/3/01 +0200, you wrote: >I have problems using both programmers, on 2 different PCs. Was the person doing the programming the same one? And not you? A long shot, perhaps, but I've seen problems with sloppy operation and ignoring the feedback from the programmer. A couple of rails of ruined OTP parts... Best regards, =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" RemoveMEspeffKILLspaminterlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com Contributions invited->The AVR-gcc FAQ is at: http://www.bluecollarlinux.com =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList piclist-unsubscribe-requestSTOPspamspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu

The PICStart Plus is a development programmer. It is not intended to be used from production. It does not varying the supply voltage during progamming. It is required to insure that the part's programming will be valid for the entire range of input supply values. Use a production programmer (like those offered by Advanced Transdata). Douglas Wood Software Engineer spamBeGonedbwoodSTOPspamEraseMEkc.rr.com Home of the EPICIS Development System for the PIC and SX http://epicis.piclist.com {Original Message removed}

> >I have problems using both programmers, on 2 different PCs. > > Was the person doing the programming the same one? And not > you? I was using on programmer on one PC (during development), and the guy programming the 500 parts were using another PC with another programmer. Regards Jacob Blichfeldt KILLspamjacobspamBeGoneblichfeldt.dk http://www.blichfeldt.dk -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads