>From: Russell McMahon <EraseMEapptechspam_OUTTakeThisOuTCLEAR.NET.NZ>
>Reply-To: pic microcontroller discussion list <PICLISTspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
>To: @spam@PICLISTKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Tragedy
>Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:24:51 +1200
>
>I'm extremely sorry to hear of the cowardly attack on the people of the US.
>
>It's hard to say anything more profound than that at a time like this
>
>
>     God bless,
>
>
>                Russell McMahon
>
>--
>http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
>ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.
>
>

>
> Hello Nick,
>     To you and to all those talking about this tragedy ....first I am
> Arabian and specifically from IRAQ but I am living in Japan now ....3 years
> ago I ran away from my country ...
> I am deeply sad and depressed coz of this tragedy .... Dear Nick if the USA
> made a mistakes against the other countries so it is not a solution to make
> the same mistake with the USA ...who has the right to kill all of those
> people ha ..tell me who has the right?
> it is completely stupid work .... if they are Muslims I am muslims too,but
> be sure in Islam rules nobody in this world has the right to kill or send
> anybody to the other world but Allah(God) ....my heart is bleeding for that
> tragedy ...smile of a baby is much expensive than this world ........the bad
> thing will happen if the USA will try to revenge upon those stupids ....
> peace ...peace ...peace ...
>
> Allah will help us
>
> Regards
> Salah Mohammed

> You are being far too specific.  I couldn't care less who "actually" did
> this.  Let me get this straight:  If 20 people total pulled this off, you
> want us to get these 20 madmen, and give them life in prison.  And, at
> taxpayer expense, give them 3 sqaure meals a day, and warm, dry beds, and
> cable television, until they die of old age, with full access to the
> prison's health care system?  Even giving all perpetrators the death penalty
> is meaningless.  That takes 10 years. And is irrelevant.
>
> We know quite well who the usual suspects are.  It's time to lump them all
> together, and call them the "official" list of rogue nations.  We need to
> tell them all when any single terrorist incident occurs to US or US allies'
> interests, all nations on the list will pay a price by absorbing measured
> but nonetheless enormous surgical strikes aimed at their most critical
> infrastructure.  And... consequences be DAMNED.  Escalation be DAMNED.  You
> want a war of escalation, we WIN.  And, if you escalate, our rate of
> escalation will be exponential to yours.
>
> Our official policy to the rogue nations should be: "We fully understand
> that you wish to murder every single US citizen and vanquish the Great
> Satan.  We have no problem with your thoughts.  Think all you want.  But
> should you try to translate your thoughts to reality in this regard, you
> will find that the Great Satan is far too powerful to be hurt by you in any
> statistically signifigant way.  We can absorb your greatest attack more than
> millions-fold.  You haven't the means to detroy us.  And, you will learn
> that attacking the Great Satan will be your own undoing, in the most
> immediate fashion -- even if it requires our reluctant physical destruction
> of your entire country, our reluctant extermination of your entire
> population, and our reluctant annexing of your geographical landmass as the
> next US state.  We beg you to leave us alone, and be yourselves, by
> yourselves, in your own little corner of the world."
>
> Our military might must no longer remain caged.  Reality is that we are the
> strongest nation on the face of the Earth.  This is no mistake.  We've
> EARNED it.  All democratic semi-rational nations have nothing to fear.  Only
> the "official" list of rogue nations will be attacked.
>

> I too am interested.
>
> In particular I am interested in Arab-sympathetic news sites, official or
> otherwise.
>
> In general I want to get a sense of what these people are thinking.  What
> led them to this?  Sheer evil indifference toward life?  Years of history
> of being screwed over by the USA?  What?
>
> -Steve
>
>

>  -----Mensaje original-----
>  De: pic microcontroller discussion list
>  [PICLISTspam_OUT@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU]En nombre de Nick Taylor
>  Enviado el: miercoles, 12 de septiembre de 2001 18:42
>  Para: spamBeGonePICLIST@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>  Asunto: Re: Tragedy
>
>
>  Mark Skeels wrote:
>  >
>  > I offer this for your consideration: hatred, at it's heart, is
>  the same as
>  > murder, just not acted out. Therefore, what these terrorists
>  did is just the
>  > natural result of hatred.
>  >
>  > Now, how will you suggest that we should address the hatred,
>  which is the
>  > actual root of the problem?
>
>  Excellent, but very difficult, question Mark.  Having been married to a
>  lady from Mexico for sixteen years, and having traveled widely in my
>  twenty years in the US military, I think that I have a semi informed feel
>  for the attitudes prevalent in "third world" countries ... so I'll give
>  a shot at an answer:
>  (1) All colonial powers (US, UK, France, Spain, Portugal, Holland) need
>  to publicly acknowledge and apologize for the way we've exploited so
>  many countries ... and promise to not continue.
>
>  (2) Stop setting up and supporting puppet governments in other countries
>  that will support our economic and/or political positions. Batista in
>  Cuba, Diem and others in Viet Nam, and the Shah in Iran quickly come to
>  mind ...We make them rich, arm them, and then use them to exploit their
>  countries.
>
>  (3) Stop using military or economic means to coerce other countries to
>  conform with our ideas of how they should handle their internal affairs.
>  Use our military strength only to defend our shores and our citizens.
>
>  (4) Stop electing our US government officials based on their fund raising
>  abilities and the image that they present on television.  Tony Blair
>  comes to mind as the type of leader that we could have if we had a
>  better method of selecting our leaders.
>
>  (5) Improve our educational system to that a much larger portion of
>  our citizens can understand our foreign and domestic policies so that
>  we can make informed decisions in how we vote.
>
>  (6) Break the habit of thinking that we must have somebody to hate.
>  In the 20th century we went from hating the Orientals to hating the
>  Soviet Union, and now it's a toss up whether we should hate China or
>  Islam.  We don't need to be on a wartime basis to maintain our
>  economy.
>
>  Now having said all that, the atrocity of September 11th must
>  have a response.  If I were president (not a chance, my dislike for
>  politics caused me to turn down a seat on our local board of
>  education a couple of months ago) I would do the following:
>  Demand that the leadership and direct supporters of this attack
>  be delivered to the US within five days.  Consequence for non-
>  delivery is that one major city (Afghanistan, Palestine, Iraq,
>  Algeria, Iran, Libya offer a wide range of choices) will be
>  leveled with conventional weapons each five days (remember the
>  Arc Light missions in Viet Nam?).
>
>    -Nick T.
>
>  --
>  http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
>  email RemoveMElistservEraseMEKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body
>
>

>Nick,
>
>I agree with most of the things you say buy I cannot agree with the
>solution you propose : what about the civilians that would receive
>the weight of the USA fury ? You can bet that the country leaders
>will be in a safe bunker while their population suffer the consequences
>of war.
>
>I believe in justice, justice everywhere and for everybody, and I
>think that all the weight of law must fall over the people behind
>this horror, but not over people whose only guilt is to live in the
>wrong city.
>
>The USA holds a military, economic, industrial, scientific, etc...
>leadership in the world. Perhaps this kind of things would have not
>happened if it has held the moral leadership also.
>
>Do not misinterpret my words. NOTHING can justify this. NOTHING AT ALL.
>I myself live in a country (Spain) periodically hit by terrorism.
>But something has gone wrong when in the streets of Palestine crowds of
>people celebrate the killing of thousands of USA citizens.
>
>Let the victims rest in peace and God enlighten our leaders to behave
>appropriately.
>
>Joan
>
> >  -----Mensaje original-----
> >  De: pic microcontroller discussion list
> >  [PICLISTspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU]En nombre de Nick Taylor
> >  Enviado el: miercoles, 12 de septiembre de 2001 18:42
> >  Para: RemoveMEPICLISTKILLspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> >  Asunto: Re: Tragedy
> >
> >
> >  Mark Skeels wrote:
> >  >
> >  > I offer this for your consideration: hatred, at it's heart, is
> >  the same as
> >  > murder, just not acted out. Therefore, what these terrorists
> >  did is just the
> >  > natural result of hatred.
> >  >
> >  > Now, how will you suggest that we should address the hatred,
> >  which is the
> >  > actual root of the problem?
> >
> >  Excellent, but very difficult, question Mark.  Having been married to a
> >  lady from Mexico for sixteen years, and having traveled widely in my
> >  twenty years in the US military, I think that I have a semi informed feel
> >  for the attitudes prevalent in "third world" countries ... so I'll give
> >  a shot at an answer:
> >  (1) All colonial powers (US, UK, France, Spain, Portugal, Holland) need
> >  to publicly acknowledge and apologize for the way we've exploited so
> >  many countries ... and promise to not continue.
> >
> >  (2) Stop setting up and supporting puppet governments in other countries
> >  that will support our economic and/or political positions. Batista in
> >  Cuba, Diem and others in Viet Nam, and the Shah in Iran quickly come to
> >  mind ...We make them rich, arm them, and then use them to exploit their
> >  countries.
> >
> >  (3) Stop using military or economic means to coerce other countries to
> >  conform with our ideas of how they should handle their internal affairs.
> >  Use our military strength only to defend our shores and our citizens.
> >
> >  (4) Stop electing our US government officials based on their fund raising
> >  abilities and the image that they present on television.  Tony Blair
> >  comes to mind as the type of leader that we could have if we had a
> >  better method of selecting our leaders.
> >
> >  (5) Improve our educational system to that a much larger portion of
> >  our citizens can understand our foreign and domestic policies so that
> >  we can make informed decisions in how we vote.
> >
> >  (6) Break the habit of thinking that we must have somebody to hate.
> >  In the 20th century we went from hating the Orientals to hating the
> >  Soviet Union, and now it's a toss up whether we should hate China or
> >  Islam.  We don't need to be on a wartime basis to maintain our
> >  economy.
> >
> >  Now having said all that, the atrocity of September 11th must
> >  have a response.  If I were president (not a chance, my dislike for
> >  politics caused me to turn down a seat on our local board of
> >  education a couple of months ago) I would do the following:
> >  Demand that the leadership and direct supporters of this attack
> >  be delivered to the US within five days.  Consequence for non-
> >  delivery is that one major city (Afghanistan, Palestine, Iraq,
> >  Algeria, Iran, Libya offer a wide range of choices) will be
> >  leveled with conventional weapons each five days (remember the
> >  Arc Light missions in Viet Nam?).
> >
> >    -Nick T.
> >
> >  --
> >  http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
> >  email listservspamBeGone.....mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body
> >
> >
>
>--
>http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
>email KILLspamlistserv.....mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

>Joan Ilari wrote:
>
>
>>Do not misinterpret my words. NOTHING can justify this. NOTHING AT ALL.
>>I myself live in a country (Spain) periodically hit by terrorism.
>>But something has gone wrong when in the streets of Palestine crowds of
>>people celebrate the killing of thousands of USA citizens.
>>
>>Let the victims rest in peace and God enlighten our leaders to behave
>>appropriately.
>>
>I agree, nothing can justify it, coming from a country and a city (Cape
>Town, SA) that has been hit by terrorism up to a year ago, and the
>threat is still there, although recently from a different group.
>As far as the Palestinian crowds are concerned, remember this one thing
>we have learned from our earlier troubles:
>
>One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
>
>Quentin
>
>--
>http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
>email RemoveMElistservRemoveMEEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body
>
>
>
>
>

>
> Amen, Joan!
>
> Nick, I mostly agreed with your earlier comments, but I cannot agree with
> what you suggest. It seems to me that you would be killing hundreds of
> thousands of people in exchange for 10,000. Just consider whether you could
> live with yourself the day after the retribution, when you had to go to
> sleep thinking about the horrified faces of the children who died in our
> bombing.
>
> Sean
>
> At 07:32 PM 9/12/01 +0200, Joan Ilari wrote:
> >Nick,
> >
> >I agree with most of the things you say buy I cannot agree with the
> >solution you propose : what about the civilians that would receive
> >the weight of the USA fury ? You can bet that the country leaders
> >will be in a safe bunker while their population suffer the consequences
> >of war.
> >
> >I believe in justice, justice everywhere and for everybody, and I
> >think that all the weight of law must fall over the people behind
> >this horror, but not over people whose only guilt is to live in the
> >wrong city.
> >
> >The USA holds a military, economic, industrial, scientific, etc...
> >leadership in the world. Perhaps this kind of things would have not
> >happened if it has held the moral leadership also.
> >
> >Do not misinterpret my words. NOTHING can justify this. NOTHING AT ALL.
> >I myself live in a country (Spain) periodically hit by terrorism.
> >But something has gone wrong when in the streets of Palestine crowds of
> >people celebrate the killing of thousands of USA citizens.
> >
> >Let the victims rest in peace and God enlighten our leaders to behave
> >appropriately.
> >
> >Joan
> >
> > >  -----Mensaje original-----
> > >  De: pic microcontroller discussion list
> > >  [PICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]En nombre de Nick Taylor
> > >  Enviado el: miercoles, 12 de septiembre de 2001 18:42
> > >  Para: RemoveMEPICLISTspamBeGoneRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> > >  Asunto: Re: Tragedy
> > >
> > >
> > >  Mark Skeels wrote:
> > >  >
> > >  > I offer this for your consideration: hatred, at it's heart, is
> > >  the same as
> > >  > murder, just not acted out. Therefore, what these terrorists
> > >  did is just the
> > >  > natural result of hatred.
> > >  >
> > >  > Now, how will you suggest that we should address the hatred,
> > >  which is the
> > >  > actual root of the problem?
> > >
> > >  Excellent, but very difficult, question Mark.  Having been married to a
> > >  lady from Mexico for sixteen years, and having traveled widely in my
> > >  twenty years in the US military, I think that I have a semi informed feel
> > >  for the attitudes prevalent in "third world" countries ... so I'll give
> > >  a shot at an answer:
> > >  (1) All colonial powers (US, UK, France, Spain, Portugal, Holland) need
> > >  to publicly acknowledge and apologize for the way we've exploited so
> > >  many countries ... and promise to not continue.
> > >
> > >  (2) Stop setting up and supporting puppet governments in other countries
> > >  that will support our economic and/or political positions. Batista in
> > >  Cuba, Diem and others in Viet Nam, and the Shah in Iran quickly come to
> > >  mind ...We make them rich, arm them, and then use them to exploit their
> > >  countries.
> > >
> > >  (3) Stop using military or economic means to coerce other countries to
> > >  conform with our ideas of how they should handle their internal affairs.
> > >  Use our military strength only to defend our shores and our citizens.
> > >
> > >  (4) Stop electing our US government officials based on their fund raising
> > >  abilities and the image that they present on television.  Tony Blair
> > >  comes to mind as the type of leader that we could have if we had a
> > >  better method of selecting our leaders.
> > >
> > >  (5) Improve our educational system to that a much larger portion of
> > >  our citizens can understand our foreign and domestic policies so that
> > >  we can make informed decisions in how we vote.
> > >
> > >  (6) Break the habit of thinking that we must have somebody to hate.
> > >  In the 20th century we went from hating the Orientals to hating the
> > >  Soviet Union, and now it's a toss up whether we should hate China or
> > >  Islam.  We don't need to be on a wartime basis to maintain our
> > >  economy.
> > >
> > >  Now having said all that, the atrocity of September 11th must
> > >  have a response.  If I were president (not a chance, my dislike for
> > >  politics caused me to turn down a seat on our local board of
> > >  education a couple of months ago) I would do the following:
> > >  Demand that the leadership and direct supporters of this attack
> > >  be delivered to the US within five days.  Consequence for non-
> > >  delivery is that one major city (Afghanistan, Palestine, Iraq,
> > >  Algeria, Iran, Libya offer a wide range of choices) will be
> > >  leveled with conventional weapons each five days (remember the
> > >  Arc Light missions in Viet Nam?).
> > >
> > >    -Nick T.

>Sam Linder wrote:
>
>>If those who did this or those who celebrate this think they've accomplished
>>something - just wait. Now you've REALLY PISSED US OFF!
>>
>
>Sam ... didn't we cheer and celebrate while watching CNN's live
>coverage of our missiles falling on Baghdad a few short years
>ago?  What's good for the goose is good for the gander, even
>though at times we have to be the goose.
>
>   -Nick T.
>
>--
>http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
>email spamBeGonelistservmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body
>
>
>
>
>.
>

>"M. Adam Davis" wrote:
>
>>I am very deeply offended that people keep peddling that line:
>>"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."
>>
>>It is akin to saying,
>>"One man's murderer is another man's [fill in the blank]".
>>
>
>I also am very tired of hearing (and saying) it ... but it's
>very true.  Many states (notably Texas) execute a large number
>of convicted criminals each year.  It most certainly is NOT a
>deterrent, it does NOT protect society any more than life
>imprisonment ... it only satisfies a blood lust, and in my
>mind is murder by the state.  "One man's murderer is another
>man's purveyor of justice."
>
>Regards,
>  -Nick T.
>
>--
>http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
>email RemoveMElistservspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body
>
>
>
>
>

>
> Or you have a chronic inability to generate useful analogies.
>
> Anyway.  I don't think I really have anything else useful to say on this
> particular track.  It seems this is going to degrade into a splitting
> hairs type of discussion.
>
> I'm sorry if I don't understand what you are truly trying to get at.  It
> just seems like you are sympathetic to the views of those who would
> perfrom this act.
>
> -Adam
>
> Nick Taylor wrote:
>
> >"M. Adam Davis" wrote:
> >
> >>I am very deeply offended that people keep peddling that line:
> >>"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."
> >>
> >>It is akin to saying,
> >>"One man's murderer is another man's [fill in the blank]".
> >>
> >
> >I also am very tired of hearing (and saying) it ... but it's
> >very true.  Many states (notably Texas) execute a large number
> >of convicted criminals each year.  It most certainly is NOT a
> >deterrent, it does NOT protect society any more than life
> >imprisonment ... it only satisfies a blood lust, and in my
> >mind is murder by the state.  "One man's murderer is another
> >man's purveyor of justice."
> >
> >Regards,
> >  -Nick T.

>
> i never said my policy was revenge for revenge's sake.  i simply said to
> thrust upon all rougue nations a "reverse article 5" process, that is, we
> are now treating an attack againts one nato nation as an attack against all
> nato nations, and likewise, we should consider such origin of attack all the
> nations on the rogue of nations list and pursue cripplintg surgical strikes
> against their top level infrastructure.  how is that revenge for revenge's
> sake?  And yes, there is something to be said for revenge.
>
> Senator John McCain said today "May god have mercy on you, because we
> won't."
>
> And, I've read most of the NY area papers today.  All the editorials are in
> agreement, using terms like "insane suicidal madmen" quite freely -- and are
> almost all asking for pure revenge for revenge's sake.  And this, from
> normally left leaning liberal strongholds, especially the New York Times,
> for example.
>
> I'd be surprised in Bush does't lay heavy waste to vast areas, including use
> of US ground forced to occupy necessary foreign lands.
>
> I can't wait.

>Dan,
>
>Think what you like.  These people deserve the massive carnage (hopefully
>nuclear) that will fall upon them shortly.  What would you have us do, give
>them a big hug.  They hijacked airliners full of people going about their
>own business and killed them all, along with the everyone in the buildings.
>What gives them the right to do this?  They don't like the U.S., they don't
>like our policies, I tell what their not going to like, being scraped off
>our boots.
>
>Kickin' Ass is exactly what is needed, and not because we can.  Because they
>asked for it.
>
>Jc.
>

>If we do not give notice that the price of attacks on the US is
>extremely high, then the next attack my very well be with "weapons
>of mass destruction" ... small nuclear weapons, highly contagious
>disease spread through a city's water supply or via an aerosol
>disbursement over one or more cities.  Our response must not only
>be retribution, but MUST also be a deterrent!  If we do not make
>the price extremely high, then we are likely doomed to live in
>constant fear in our daily lives ... much like present day Israel.
>

>   "Try this scenario - a small band of ..."
>
>Where did this come from? WE, or at least I
>was discussing what we initially took out in
>Baghdad - when the implication -I think- was that
>we had targetted civilian targets, which was
>not the case.
>
>
>Jim
>

> BTW my posts are not saying that the civilian loss in New York is
> acceptable, it's not, but I can see why it has happened in the way that
> America acts in International affairs.  The pentagon was however a valid
> target.
>
> Justin Fielding
> IT Operations Analyst
> TV Travelshop
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nick Taylor [@spam@ntaylorSTOPspamJPS.NET]
> Sent: 12 September 2001 07:12
> To: TakeThisOuTPICLISTTakeThisOuTRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: Tragedy
>
>
> Salah Mohammed,
>    Very well said!  Many in this world have reason (and the right) to
> dislike or hate the United States, but NOBODY has the right to commit
> the horrendous acts of terrorism that in toady's news.  My fears are
> that this will degenerate into a long term (maybe endless) battle
> between the US and the Arab world ... much as has been going on
> in the middle east between Palestine and Israel ... only on a much
> larger scale.  Remember the US and Viet Nam.  Remember the USSR and
> Afghanistan.  Military might and technology are no match against
> dedicated nationalists in a guerilla war short of total annihilation.
> I pray that cooler heads prevail.  We cannot, we must not, drop
> nuclear bombs on Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Palestine, Morocco,
> Algeria ... and then hunt down the survivors and murder them.
> May Allah be with you Salah Mohammed,
>
> Best Regards,
>    -Nick T.
>
> Salah Mohammed wrote:
> >
> > Hello Nick,
> >     To you and to all those talking about this tragedy ....first I am
> > Arabian and specifically from IRAQ but I am living in Japan now ....3
> years
> > ago I ran away from my country ...
> > I am deeply sad and depressed coz of this tragedy .... Dear Nick if the
> USA
> > made a mistakes against the other countries so it is not a solution to
> make
> > the same mistake with the USA ...who has the right to kill all of those
> > people ha ..tell me who has the right?
> > it is completely stupid work .... if they are Muslims I am muslims

> > anybody to the other world but Allah(God) ....my heart is bleeding for
> that
> > tragedy ...smile of a baby is much expensive than this world ........the
> bad
> > thing will happen if the USA will try to revenge upon those stupids ....
> > peace ...peace ...peace ...
> >
> > Allah will help us
> >
> > Regards
> > Salah Mohammed
>
> --
> http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
> email spam_OUTlistservspam.....mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body
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