Just as a suggestion but any chance for a sort of 'SX Stamp' in the future?

More or less be the same as one of the faster Basic Stamps minus the on chip basic interpretter. If it were pin compatible with existing BSs people that wanted to move up to more speed/interupts/etc could potentially do so with existing hardware if they were to recode in assembly or SX/B.

Esp. for the SMT SXs it would make the SX chip a little easier to work with and would have external memory built onto the chip. Even more so if SX/B added more support for such a 'standardized' setup.

We talked about that after the release of SX/B because -- believe it or not -- the original BS2sx had the programming pins brought out to very small pads (they were removed some time ago).  The trouble is cost -- building those modules is not easy or cheap.  How much would you be willing to pay for an SX Stamp?

I have made a little single sided PC board that interfaces the SX28AC/DP to the BS2 footprint.
You could do the same.
Basically RB is pins 0 to 7, and RC is pins 8 to 15.
If uses the internal 4MHz oscillator, although if I had it to do over I would have put sockets for a resonator.
Bean.

Very cool Bean. That vertical programming header is scary as heck though. I can just see a careless motion snapping the header right off the board. Is there enough clearance on the BOE to use a right angle header?

"-- believe it or not -- the original BS2sx had the programming pins brought out to very small pads (they were removed some time ago)"
I have an older BS2sx, I'll have to see if they are on that one. I assume if I was to overwrite the SX its functionality as a Basic Stamp are gone forever, correct?

"The trouble is cost -- building those modules is not easy or cheap. How much would you be willing to pay for an SX Stamp?"
Less then say a BS2px since it wouldn't have the IP and a couple less components on it. But if it was something I needed I'd still be willing to pay $50 or $60 for one assuming it had the external memory, voltage regulator and such.

"I have made a little single sided PC board that interfaces the SX28AC/DP to the BS2 footprint."
Does that have the rest of the functionality of the BS though? Memory, voltage regulation and so on?

I realize one could lay out a circuit board to do all of this but making circuit boards certainly isn't as convient as a BS is for breadboarding or one off type projects.

sparkfun.com offers PCB board fabrication at $5/sq.in. At the size of the BS2 footprint, your looking at $5, $10 tops. All that is required is the grunt work of laying it out. If you use a surface mount version of the SX you will make considerable room for the other components you want to put on the board.

If you want plug-n-play compatibility with the BASIC Stamp (includeing the serial connections on pins 1 and 2 of the DIP), then you'd get a BS2sx without the interpreter in it -- everything else is required.  This would give you an SX28 and a 16K EEPROM that you could store data in.  You can find the schematic of the BS2sx in our latest programming manual.

And yes, if you find a BS2sx with the programming port and reporgram it ... it will never be a BASIC Stamp again.

"All that is required is the grunt work of laying it out. If you use a surface mount version of the SX you will make considerable room for the other components you want to put on the board."
Again, that is my point. A big part of why people use BS is convience/ease of use. Having to layout a PCB, wait weeks for it, possibly redo it... wait more, then buy a variety of SMT components and do some SMT soldering isn't what most would consider convient.

Buying one 'SX Stamp' from Parallax all set to go is convient.

Anyhow it was just an idea.

Hello,
  While not Stamp Compatible for pinout, have you tried the SX Con Carne for a DIP version of the SX52?

Chris,
Thanks for the link. Turns out the BS2sx I have does have the pins on it so if I really wanted to I could use it that way.

If the only difference between a 'Basic Stamp' and a 'SX Stamp' would be one chip then it probably wouldn't make sense to offer two versions like that. But maybe putting programming pins traces back on Stamp could work. That way people could use it either way if desired.

Thanks!

[Quoting: "StampUSR"]
Again, that is my point. A big part of why people use BS is convience/ease of use. Having to layout a PCB, wait weeks for it, possibly redo it... wait more, then buy a variety of SMT components and do some SMT soldering isn't what most would consider convient.

"Is waiting 6 -12 months for Parallax to develop a new product a more convenient option?"
Yes it is. I wasn't suggesting this for my own use, just as an idea on a possible avenue for Parallax.

Parallax seems to be pushing the SX chip on its own quite a bit with the SX/B compiler and so on. If a current stamp user wanted to give SX programming a shot (esp. the SMT chips with more program memory) having a chip in the 'Stamp' form factor/layout ready to go (or something like that) from Parallax is far easier to deal with then having some PCBs made, ordering the individual parts and trying to solder it together.

"All the grunt work is gone since it is a tested design and fabrication would be <$10, with an average turn around of 10 days (spread of 7-14 days). "
Except that board lacks the regulation and memory that a Stamp has. To add that the gunt work starts over with new testing as well.

"Only "inconvenience" is the soldering of the SMT chips."
Which for some is a big one on the 52 pin units. I have been soldering for 20+ years and would still be a little hesitant to tackle that and would probably need to buy different equipment to do a decent job of it. The prototype boards are a good way around this for a little bit of experimentation but lack external memory and don't work at all for anyone that wants to use that chip in any sort of quantity in a product. While OTOH the Stamp is a piece of cake to use like that... just plug it into a socket and go.

[Quoting: "StampUSR"]"Is waiting 6 -12 months for Parallax to develop a new product a more convenient option?"
Yes it is. I wasn't suggesting this for my own use, just as an idea on a possible avenue for Parallax.

Parallax seems to be pushing the SX chip on its own quite a bit with the SX/B compiler and so on. If a current stamp user wanted to give SX programming a shot (esp. the SMT chips with more program memory) having a chip in the 'Stamp' form factor/layout ready to go (or something like that) from Parallax is far easier to deal with then having some PCBs made, ordering the individual parts and trying to solder it together.

"All the grunt work is gone since it is a tested design and fabrication would be <$10, with an average turn around of 10 days (spread of 7-14 days). "
Except that board lacks the regulation and memory that a Stamp has. To add that the gunt work starts over with new testing as well.

"Only "inconvenience" is the soldering of the SMT chips."
Which for some is a big one on the 52 pin units. I have been soldering for 20+ years and would still be a little hesitant to tackle that and would probably need to buy different equipment to do a decent job of it. The prototype boards are a good way around this for a little bit of experimentation but lack external memory and don't work at all for anyone that wants to use that chip in any sort of quantity in a product. While OTOH the Stamp is a piece of cake to use like that... just plug it into a socket and go.

Bob N9LVU  :scool:

StampUSR said...(trimmed)
"All the grunt work is gone since it is a tested design and fabrication would be <$10, with an average turn around of 10 days (spread of 7-14 days). "
Except that board lacks the regulation and memory that a Stamp has. To add that the gunt work starts over with new testing as well.

  What do you mean lacks the regulation?  I thought you were talking about the new Protoboards there, and they do have on-board regulation.  In fact, they will even mount on a BOE-Bot chassis.  As for memory, even the SX28 has 2K of memory, which is the same amount as a BS2 has available for program memory.  Unless I missed the target device in your post/thread.

No, what he is looking for is an SX with the footprint of a Stamp, with onboard regulation, and onboard memory.
So basically he is looking for is a Stamp that you program the SX instead of the EEPROM (no basic engine preinstalled on SX).
at least thats what I got from the thread.

"No, what he is looking for is an SX with the footprint of a Stamp, with onboard regulation, and onboard memory."
Basically that is it.  There are at least three competitors to Parallax that offer versions of their competing products in the 'Stamp' form factor. Basic X, BasicAtom and the JStamp for example and there may be others. It just seems odd to me that Parallax is pushing the SX chip without having a 'Stamp' form factor version of it too.

We can only do so much at one time...  please, be patient.  That's not to say that we will do anything about this, because to be quite candid, I think that the market has unrealistic ideas about how much those modules -- using the high-quality components (especially legs) that we use -- actually cost.  If it was so easy, you could go do it and make a boatload of money right?

We can only do so much at one time.  Not that we will do anything about this because making BASIC Stamp modules (with the quality legs we use) isn't cheap, and we're not sure you'd be happy with a price that lets us sell them to you and still have money to support them.

[Quoting: "StampUSR"]
There are at least three competitors to Parallax that offer versions of their competing products in the 'Stamp' form factor.

I also just found the OOPIC in the same form.

"They may be similar products but they are not competitors.
Not when you take the quality of the company and support into account."
That may be so if that is the metric you base your decision on. Parallax does have a large presence here and that is of course a good thing.

But if you look at execution speed, memory size and cost Parallax doesn't compete with a few of them either. Like everything else it is all about tradeoffs. Great support is important when you are getting going. But after you are there speed/memory/cost can get pretty important too.

So why not build your own module?  All the parts are available ... why wait for us to do it?

Its all about quality!
when I was first starting out in the stamp world I saw the same things as you.
BS2~4000 ips
BasicX~65000 ips
something like that!?
The quality of there product is no where near the quality of Parallax's product.
If you looking for speed memory ect.
why not start with a stamp to get ya going the move to something else if you feel comfortable.
I all depends on what your doing.
You could go FPGA if you needed something of that calibur.
or ARM.
Alot of people are just having fun and enjoy learning programming and electronics.
There are also quite a few seasoned people who do some really cool stuff with the SX's.
Its very easy to design something on expressPCB and have you boards back in a few days.
Then you can put some parts on your boards and paste and throw it in the toaster oven for a little while or you can use another method where you put a little solder on you pencil and some liquid flux on the pins and wipe the solder across the pins.
Its another accomplishment or experience you can throw under you belt.
Parallax has excellent documentation for there products as well as examples and support, but best of all they have this great community of people on these forums who are earger to help out whenever possible.
or you can go to the other guy, good luck!  We've all been there.

"So why not build your own module?"
For all the reasons I already gave.

"All the parts are available ... why wait for us to do it?"
I'm not waiting for you to do it. If I needed something like this and it wasn't available from Parallax I'd look into my options.

Like I have said, it was just a suggestion. Obviously one you don't agree with which is fine.

"why not start with a stamp to get ya going the move to something else if you feel comfortable."
That is exactly my point... a person can't as easily move up from Stamp based products to SX based because there is no SX available in the Stamp form factor.

"when I was first starting out in the stamp world I saw the same things as you.
BS2~4000 ips
BasicX~65000 ips
something like that!?"
And the BasicX supports multi-tasking, interrupts, has a hardware UART (as well as software UART), has twice the EEPROM (and no 2k block limits) and about 3 times the RAM. For someone wanting to move up from a Stamp to a unit with multi-tasking and interrupts it is easier to move there then it is to an SX. To me anyway that seems like an oversight...

StampUSR,
 You have a valid point, but in my opinion your typical SX user is more sophisicated than your typical stamp user. As such the SX user will be more inclied to solder parts onto a proto-board, and not worry about having a "plug-in" microcontroller.
 I have found out over time that Parallax usually knows exactly what they are doing. If they felt that there was a market for an SX in a DIP24 package, they would be selling it.
 That said it would make a cool project for someone to do.

Bean.

Nobody said we didn't agree -- it's just not as easy as some would think.  Even apparently simple projects require engineering resources; in this case we have to layout a Stamp-like module that would allow you to reprogram it.  But then, there are other questions: Do we maintaint the quasi-RS232 port on pins 1-4 or is that where we connect an SX-Key?  Do we put a fixed resonator on the module or a socket so you can select speed?  If the latter, is there even room given the other components on the module?

Please understand that we work very hard to deliver what our customers ask for; and most of the time we succeed.  Sometimes things are tough tough, and no amount of criticism is going to make our task any easier.

Perhaps we can end this dicussion here.  This forum is, afterall, intended to support the SX and not to debate the relative merits of other products.

[Quoting: "StampUSR"]
"So why not build your own module?"
For all the reasons I already gave.

"All the parts are available ... why wait for us to do it?"
I'm not waiting for you to do it. If I needed something like this and it wasn't available from Parallax I'd look into my options.

Like I have said, it was just a suggestion. Obviously one you don't agree with which is fine.

I suggest you look a little deeper into the products and supoort you'll get from other companies. While some of the other products are faster, I've read they're not nearly as fast as those numbers listed on their advertisements. Check the message bases and read the comments from other users. I did and found there are long-standing bugs and problems with some products that haven't been updated in YEARS. Another company provides a beginner version of BASIC to get you started, but if you want advanced features you'll need to cough up another $250 for their 'Professional' Basic.

By comparison, I've never seen Parallax exagerate on their advertisements, and Parallax's top of the line Basic Stamp (BS2PX) will cost you just $79. If you need something faster, the SX Toolkit with the SX-Key programmer, a few textbooks, 2 SX28's and 2 resonators will run you $99 and a SX48/52 Prototype board (completely assembled) is another $9.95. Using SX/B, you can do multitasking with interrupts in Basic, and the SX48/52 prototype board's have a place you can solder (2) 32KB I2C EEPROM's.

Hello,
  I have one final closing thought on this thread as well...In terms of a socket-compatible replacement upgrade, I have to wonder...What good would a pin-compatible chip with onboard timers, UARTS, A/D conversion, etc do to replace a module that didn't have any of that in an existing product?

  The answer is nothing...If the original device wasn't built to use all those bells and whistles on the new module, there would be no point plugging it into an existing product to upgrade.  You would need to re-design.  That being the case there would be no need for pin compatibility, which is why an upgrade to the SX from the BASIC Stamp does work for most.  New designs, new chip.  Just a thought.

Per Jon's request I don't want to continue discussing other companies products.

"and Parallax's top of the line Basic Stamp (BS2PX) will cost you just $79. If you need something faster, the SX Toolkit with the SX-Key programmer, a few textbooks, 2 SX28's and 2 resonators will run you $99 and a SX48/52 Prototype board (completely assembled) is another $9.95. Using SX/B, you can do multitasking with interrupts in Basic, and the SX48/52 prototype board's have a place you can solder (2) 32KB I2C EEPROM's."
I have many BS2px's sitting here ready to go, with hopefully a need for many more of them. I like the unit, it did (mostly) what I needed it to do and was extremely easy to use. I also have the SX-Key and board and such there too.

I was just pointing out that for someone that wanted to 'move up' from a BS2 that IMO the SX isn't exactly a slam dunk answer. The prototype board is great for prototyping... it isn't good for using a lot of the chips.

What if a person using one of Parallax's BS2 based robots wanted to 'do more' with the micro-controller... the SX in its present form doesn't fit there (while others do)....etc...etc....

And again... this was just a suggestion... not based on a 'need' of mine. I tend to think if I wanted to 'move up' the SX wouldn't work for me based on program size.

Chris,
"...What good would a pin-compatible chip with onboard timers, UARTS, A/D conversion, etc do to replace a module that didn't have any of that in an existing product?

The answer is nothing..."
You are telling me you can't think of any existing BS applications where any of the above (and you left out speed increases and flexibility to do things that PBasic can't do)  might be useful to have?

Come on.....

If that is really your position then why does the BS2PX still fit into the same form as a BS2? The px has features that the BS2 doesn't have and didn't exist when the original BS2 app. was designed. Yet Parallax kept backwards compatibility to the form factor. The reason being that they may very well be useful to a person using a BS2 somewhere in an existing design. By the same token an 'SX Stamp' could be useful too... if for no other reason then writing the identical program in SX/B and having speed increases over the Stamp.

"That being the case there would be no need for pin compatibility, which is why an upgrade to the SX from the BASIC Stamp does work for most.  New designs, new chip."
Then by the same token a 'new design, new chip' a person has little reason to automatically go with an SX. If you are going to start from scratch and redesign for a new chip by itself anyway might as well explore all the other  options out there.

It is about trying to keep repeat customers.....

Anyhow, I made the suggestion and tried to explain my thinking behind it and will end it at that.

StampUSR said...(trimmed)
Chris,
"...What good would a pin-compatible chip with onboard timers, UARTS, A/D conversion, etc do to replace a module that didn't have any of that in an existing product?
The answer is nothing..."
You are telling me you can't think of any existing BS applications where any of the above (and you left out speed increases and flexibility to do things that PBasic can't do) might be useful to have?
Come on.....
If that is really your position then why does the BS2PX still fit into the same form as a BS2? The px has features that the BS2 doesn't have and didn't exist when the original BS2 app. was designed. Yet Parallax kept backwards compatibility to the form factor. The reason being that they may very well be useful to a person using a BS2 somewhere in an existing design. By the same token an 'SX Stamp' could be useful too... if for no other reason then writing the identical program in SX/B and having speed increases over the Stamp.

Okay,

  I think my point was missed.  In reference to a pin-compatible replacement for a Stamp Module, if you have a product that you have built around the Stamp Module, let's say something high performance like a data control module for a factory/machine system.  If you drop in some module with on-board UARTs and Timers and A/D converters into the socket, how would you be able to use them?  The product was designed around a module that didn't have this hardware.  That was my point.  Now the new module may be faster, and it may have more memory, but all the extra hardware wasn't part of the original design.

  Now, let's look at on-board hardware for a moment.  Even before I came to work for Parallax I never appreciated microcontrollers that had anything built-on.  So you start using a micro with on-board A/D.  What happens when you need more bits of resolution?  More channels?  Now that on-board A/D is useless, and you still have to go out and hang a chip off the micro.  The same can be said for much of the hardware included on these devices.  A system that allows you to pick and choose your hardware is ultimately more flexible and allows for more creativity in the design.  Plus, since the micro itself isn't constantly changing (The BASIC Stamp has been around for a long time) then you can always count on the hardware and software to be compatible.  As you add built-in hardware to a micro, so complicates the code and hardware design.

  As for the BS2px...You are correct, it does have additional features that the BS2 doesn't have.  None of these were really added, per se.  The SX chip on-board the module already had the hardware on it to support these features, they simply weren't being used.  The fact is, you can use a BS2px24 in place of a BS2p or a BS2 without having to really make any hardware changes.  Only a few minor code changes might be necessary.  If you drop in a pin-compatible other micro, you have to start over with your code, and possibly make some hardware changes.

  The SX wasn't supposed to replace the BASIC Stamp.  In many cases it compliments it.  Co-Processors are another reason the BASIC Stamp is still so useful, you can always augment it.  I hope this clarifies the point I was trying to make.  I wasn't trying to argue yours.  Take care.

[Quoting: "Jon Williams (Parallax)"]And yes, if you find a BS2sx with the programming port and reporgram it ... it will never be a BASIC Stamp again.

Sure, give up the souce code, destroy our business all of the support our customers count on -- that those using our source code probably wouldn't bother with ... yeah, that makes a lot of sense....

[Quoting: "TD-Linux"]
That is, unless you give us the source code. :smilewinkgrin: