Any plans for an sx-b book ?

I know of a couple that are "in-the-works". I don't know any ETA's though.

Bean.

I'm working on one now -- don't know if any others are as well.

There are two such books, one from John Kauffman and one from Jon Williams. They're both progressing nicely at this time and we are working with the authors to see that they become available as soon as possible. I relate entirely to the requests for SX/B documentation - I have the same interests as you do so count on us to deliver on your requests.

Ken Gracey
Parallax, Inc.

How about creating an SX/B version of StampWorks?

Even if you just did an update doc that gave schematics, wiring diagrams, code, and some notes for each project, it would be a good resource. Likewise for the other manuals.

The SX/B book from Jon Williams has similarities to StampWorks. It includes more basic information about getting started and setup than StampWorks included. The first 10-12 chapters can be completed on an SX-Tech Board or SX Proto Board, but after that you'll need the Professional Devlopment Board to do the next set of projects.

The John Kauffman book is more of a comparison and adaptation of What's a Microcontroller, and is intended to be a part of the Stamps in Class series. There's some similarity in early chapters, but they diverge quite quickly as the individual authoring styles and goals take over the presentation.

I'm already reviewing both of these books and I really like what I see so far. You guys will be very happy! PJV won't be too enthusiastic until we show how to do multi-threading with SX/B, but maybe that will come in the future.

Ken Gracey
Parallax, Inc.

It's about time that this is going to happen and how long have you been selling the SX?

Greetings!

Kevin,
 I agree that it has been a long time coming, but the compiler was changing (growing) by leaps and bounds when it was first released. So it made no sense to create a book that would be obsolete before it was printed.

 It's so easy and inexpensive to modify an electronic help file, and so difficult and expensive to revise a printed book.

 The latest version has been released longer than any previous version, and it has only be released for 4 months.

Bean.

Steve,
No way. Not a chance. Our product lines run at least 15-20 years as far as we know (BS1 sales are still strong!), so the SX is still young in the scope of our lineup. We don't cast off products and customers easily, especially ones that make up a substantial portion of our revenue. Some products, especially books, take a long time to produce if they're properly designed and written. Even hardware production is a big commitment. A year can pass between product idea and smooth production.

Andy just released another BASIC Stamp book (Smart Sensors) and the Propeller is still young. This business is our hobby, too. Every piece of it is important to us and our customers.

I wish I could post Jon W's and John K's work right here for you to see, because it's really good so far. Just before visiting the forum I was reading our Editor's first draft of Jon's Practical SX/B book, and wow. . . it's clear and easy to follow! Jon did something that's normally quite difficult for him in this book. He brought the reader up to speed with very simple examples.

Ken Gracey
Parallax, Inc.

Steve,

Yes I agree, learn by example. I also agree on the rs232 interfacing and good examples on all expects of the sx features. There is nothing worse then a book that says here is the line of code or the command and that's it and it's left up to you to figure it out.

Don't worry guys, there's lots of serial projects in the book -- many of them show how to create serial accessory devices compatible with BASIC Stamps or even the Propeller.

Is this going to be a generalized book for a few different processors? My personal opinion is why screw the book up with irrelevant information for SX users. I suggest posting some example pages and getting peoples opinions since we are the ones that are going to be using it. So like what was mentioned before here we are back at the propellor(leave it out) write a propellor book.

Hello Kevin,
This is an SX-specific project book, though one could say it has plenty of general relevance towards programming other 8-bit microcontrollers in BASIC or ASM. Parallax prides itself in training material, as you know. Therefore, I would suggest that because the book focuses on the SX it is not "screwed up".

If the SX is being pushed to the side, we would not continue to invest in tool upgrades, new books, and stress-testing characterizations. If we're giving our customers the feeling that the SX and BS2 are being pushed to the side due to the arrival of the Propeller then we have a serious problem. Our revenue is highly dependent on three unique product lines (Stamp, SX, and Prop), not to mention our loyalty towards our customers demands equal development of these three lines.

I'd love to hear more from you on the subject to understand exactly what you believe in this regard.

Ken Gracey
Parallax, Inc.

As far as the comment about the SX being pushed to the side was to support a previous post. More than a year to develope a book and the time you have had the processor seems you have let some people down. I am not here to start a big controversy on how you guys run your business but i personally would have made a bigger effort to get the book out there. One of the things i would have done was to compile projects and code specifically for the SX so it was more readily downloadable so this would help support the basic compiler(pre book information). Better support on the forums from parallax that people would not have to try and get answers from forum members. They want to be here but some not very willing to help(which i know it is thier choice) but it doesn't support your product. If they are hard core users then they would help out without complaining. Any other forums i have been on there is a brotherhood of support, i have never felt that here! I have seen alot more support and examples with the propeller then i have ever seen for the SX. Maybe i have made the mistake in my choice of a processor line to go with.

[Quoting: "DigitalDj"]Is this going to be a generalized book for a few different processors? My personal opinion is why screw the book up with irrelevant information for SX users. I suggest posting some example pages and getting peoples opinions since we are the ones that are going to be using it. Like what was mentioned before that it was felt that the SX was being pushed to the side. Here we are back at the Propeller and the BS2 (leave it out) write a propeller and BS2 book. Besides up your revenue with multiple books!

Kevin

Please keep in mind that SX/B has always been absolutely FREE, and nobody except Parallax has paid a penny for it.  That Parallax is willing to pay authors to create books on the topic is yet another expression of their commitment to customers.

I worked for several years as a tech writer, and the problem I always ran into is that there was never really an even time distribution for the documentation. At the start of a software project, you can't write much because a) there isn't anything ready to document, and b) what is ready will change as you write.

So you need to find the right balance of productivity between the software development and documentation to keep everything on schedule, and everybody want the docs ready at the same time the software is ready. It just takes time!

You know what, blah, blah, blah! All i ever here is excuses. I will just go with pic's since there is alot more information and books out there and throw my SX crap in the trash and mark it up as a bad mistake! That's the real easy way to fix that!

Kevin (DigitalDJ),
Sorry to hear you're feeling let down.  Of course, if you want to give up on the SX, then it's your choice.  I have felt frustrated myself in the past.  However, there are a lot of positives to be found here.  For example, take a look at how many people have had code fixed and/or written for them by folks on this forum.

Just because a book hasn't been written on SX/B yet doesn't mean it's necessarily time to say goodbye in anger.  There may be more stuff on the PIC, but it doesn't mean there's more good stuff.

Walk away for a few days.  Give yourself a chance to not feel as frustrated by whatever is bugging you.  Of course, as I said, it's your choice to bail permanently if you want.  I'm just saying that sometimes it helps to get away for a bit.

[Quoting: "Ken Gracey (Parallax)"]
Hello Kevin,
This is an SX-specific project book, though one could say it has plenty of general relevance towards programming other 8-bit microcontrollers in BASIC or ASM. Parallax prides itself in training material, as you know. Therefore, I would suggest that because the book focuses on the SX it is not "screwed up".

If the SX is being pushed to the side, we would not continue to invest in tool upgrades, new books, and stress-testing characterizations. If we're giving our customers the feeling that the SX and BS2 are being pushed to the side due to the arrival of the Propeller then we have a serious problem. Our revenue is highly dependent on three unique product lines (Stamp, SX, and Prop), not to mention our loyalty towards our customers demands equal development of these three lines.

I'd love to hear more from you on the subject to understand exactly what you believe in this regard.

Ken Gracey
Parallax, Inc.

Now, I also haven't had time to follow the SX-B stuff. And still do all of my stuff in asm. What I see is that the Propeller is the big guy on the block, and the SX has taken the back seat. I'm still waiting for that C compiler, and development seems really slow on SX-B. When I say slow, I mean every time I turn around, there is a compiler upgrade. With my schedule, I don't feel that SX B will be stable enough to base my projects on.

In my mind right now, the only reason to choose the SX is because it's in the basic stamps, and that will keep the line alive. In my products I need a source of chips for at least a decade.

Ok, enough venting for tonight! I've got a linear control loop with stability issues that needs some attention.

If you notice there is not alot of activity on the SX forums and you can't tell me the SX is a strong seller for you unless it is a production part only. If you also notice this is not targeted to schools like the Stamps and BS2's. I don't see the SX being sold in Radio Shack either(what a marketing mistake there for the BS2). I agree the SX has taken the back seat and that's just what it is.

Prove Us Wrong and Make Some Customers Happy!

Hello Kevin,
I think we see the situation quite differently and I won't be explaining any more Parallax reasoning to you because it will only cause frustration for both parties. I accept your perception and don't feel the need to influence you any further.  
Dan, the USB SX-Key is still in engineering and has not been driven to production due to adequate supply of the serial version. It's proceeding, though. The C compiler is in beta and will remain there for quite some time. There's a beta test forum to which you could belong should you desire.

Ken Gracey
Parallax, Inc.

From my end, I've always seen the SX as device for the intermediate uP programmer.
Enough was written to help half experienced programmers get it running.

If you were able to get through all the doc's on the Basic Stamp, and you became versed enough in it, then moving to the SX would have been easier than just picking it up.
With the additional entry-level docs, then a person can start at the SX rather than work their way up to it.
I'm thankful for what Parallax has done.  The fact that their docs are free to download is amazing.  They're not counting the $'s at the door to make all they can.

Anyhow, sorry for dusting things up Ken!
Thanks much!

Anybody want to buy some SX stuff send me an email!

I'd buy you lunch if you'd just stop posting in this forum, Kevin.  That you like PICs (most of us do) is great -- there's no need to spew anger in the presence of those of us that are happy with the SX.

You know i'm not the one that has trouble supporting thier product! Yes i will shut up because i'm done with parallax.

I couldn't resist:
42 = 0b010101 the meaning of life, the universe and everything else?

By the way,dkemppai, SourceBoost does have a C compiler for the Ubicom SX, C2C-Plus. The web page says it has support for the SX-Blitz. Has anyone tried it? It's fairly inexpensive.  I hesitate to buy it, because I've not had good success with the BoostC compiler for PICs (it gives bloated compiled code).

My comments were directed to Ken, but i see when there is a good discussion going on you don't have a problem joining in, maybe do the same when people need help and there's not a book to goto! Do you think you can fix a piece of equipment that your not real familier with without the manual, don't think so!

Kevin

No longer a member of this forum:

For the sake of those who may be swayed by your inaccurate statements, there IS in fact a manual for the SX (it comes with all the SX programming kits).  Of course, there are traditional data sheets as well.  And there are in fact two books on programming the SX in its native assembly language (by Guether Daubach and Al Williams [yet another free PDF from Parallax]) -- both books published by Parallax.  And SX/B is fully explained (with examples) it the online help file.  Again, though Parallax does not charge a penny for SX/B they're willing to pay to keep improving it and to get a couple books written now that it has taken off.  The truth is that SX/B was originally intended to bridge the gap between BASIC and Assembly (which is why it compiles in place, leaving your source code and the associated assembly output easy to follow) but due to customer response it now makes good sense to write full-fledged books for it.

Does Microchip actually publish any books (I'm asking, legitimately, because I don't know) or do they rely on Myke Predko, et al, to do that?  Instead of being so harsh with Ken, you might have considered saying, "Hey, thanks, Ken, can't wait to see what you guys have coming."  Just us thought.

I think you can find a lot of free compilers for the PIC and AVR (I've seen them) -- support and documentation (online or otherwise) is another question, however.

I like the SX a lot and all I've ever done with them has been in SX/B (and with a SX-Blitz, no less.)
 My first experience with them was to crunch out my own 8-E-1 serial transmitter and I did it in a couple of days' trying.  I use the stuff to accomplish real tasks, staving off that project-killing tedium of wiring a lot of logic ICs.

Once again one thing you can't do in the USA which you should is voice your opinion without be crusified, damn no i know what jesus went through, why don't everybody just gang up on me.

KISS MY ASS!

My goodness.  Weren't going to shut up?  You've posted twice since...

[Quoting: "DigitalDj"]
Yes i will shut up because i'm done with parallax.
Nobody's ganged up on you.  You say what you want, "we" say what we want.  You're totally over-wrought, mate; emotionally over-invested.

You've said enough....if you're done..be done with it!
Stop dragging this through the dirt and let it be done!

[Quoting: "Ken Gracey (Parallax)"]
Dan, the USB SX-Key is still in engineering and has not been driven to production due to adequate supply of the serial version. It's proceeding, though. The C compiler is in beta and will remain there for quite some time. There's a beta test forum to which you could belong should you desire.

Anyway, I'm not complaining about what parallax has done. And, I do understand their target markets. I'm just calling it like I see it. As for the beta test forum, I'm far too busy with my little one, and work and contracting to participate fully in anything like that. (Actually, I only spot check my SX forum emails for interesting content).  Don't get me wrong, I'd love to help out, but lack the time. My problems is that I really need tools (hardware test, and software) to be stable and reliable and, I need them today.

Again, I do like the SX becuse the platform is stable, and appears to be backed (for now anyway)by a large need in a product (Stamps) from the company holds some rights to the thing (Parallax). Let's face parallax is probably the only reason the SX is alive today.

As for some of my faster stuff I'm going with CPLD's/FPGA's now. The SX just plain old ran out of horsepower for what I needed to do.

Ben,
I looked at all of the other C stuff out there for the SX. The problem is that everything else had poor reviews. All sorts of bugs, and poor support. If I was going to do C, it was going to be the parallax backed product, or no C at all...

Ken,
Kaufman's SX version of WAM sounds great!  We're planning a Spring 2008 "Embedded Programming" course and that would fit right in (I was planning on "adapting" the BS2 WAM but if its already done, why bother!).

Jon Williams comments on this forum have taught me many things about the SX so I'll be looking forward to his book also.

Anyway, thanks again.

P.S. Any words of wisdom from you all on trying to conduct an "Embedded Programming" course online?

[Quoting: "dkemppai"]
Here goes this stupid editor, making double spaced carrige returns again. I can't get it to do a single line carriage return. what's up with that? I like to add my cr's manually...

The editor every now and then tries to force double spaces like this:

however if you type <Shift>-Enter you will force it back to single space like this:
Even this is sometimes a little goofy by only working properly at the beginning of a new line, but you can go back and erase the double space return afterwards.

[3]
Bet you guys want this thread to be gone, but it talked about several things and many of them I have wanted to talk about.

First I picked the SX as way to accomplish my goals that the BS2 & BS2SX couldn't. The support for the SX by parallax software is unmatched within the industry (in my opinion from all the research I did). I thought it was great that I could download a "Quick Basic" style language for free and use it as a bridge to learn assembly. I quickly downloaded as much information as possible and soon found out, that there wasn't really good information on SX/B available. Most of the literature only supports Assm and most of the Ubicon PDF's supporting those downloads, is on SX_List.com instead of matched with the code examples on the Parallax site. The More I "DIG" stuff up on SXList, the more you realize that SXList and parallax have more in common than just contributions to these forums.

On the other hand, Gunther's Book, WOW!!!!. I haven't read much of it yet, but what I have read has been of a style of writing that I haven't seen in the USA for more than 30 yr's. Almost every computer book (Mostly for Programming, web design, graphics, programming in Flash Action script, Photoshop etc.) have all been the type that give you a tutorial to accomplish, without explaining the basics of How & Why it works. As a Motorcycle and mostly a Watercraft mechanic, for myself, knowing the basics of each system, lead me to advanced reasoning and diagnostic abilities. I truly appreciate a book is written from a similar point of view.

There is so little documentation on the SX/B Aliases and much of it and many of Bean's examples have there root in assembly and many of those aren't documented or you really need to dig to find them. Kind of like putting the "Cart before the horse" when your trying to learn a new upper level language, in order to learn the lower level language. The way it's currently set up, it seems easier for an assembly programmer to learn Basic. The Documentation on the examples portion of the help section is another example. I tried the LCD example, and ran the BS2 to the SX (I liked the idea of using one of my sx chips as "serial to parallel" interface for an LCD), But it didn't work. (I don't doubt that I may have screwed something up, but there's no documentation) I have a history of LCD questions here and I truly try to research any question before I post, but in the case of the SX, the BS2 is just way easier. I have made so many mistakes & tried so many things that someday I'll be an expert. LOL, and my computer is like a PDF & Code Encyclopedia.

At the time I choose the SX, the Propeller was just coming out. And the message from Parallax was that the Propeller wasn't for beginners. That being the case, the SX with SX/B and the capability to learn assembly, the free compilers and what seemed to be a wealth of information looked to be the logical next step over Basic Stamps. But now your advertising that the propeller will bring the "fun back into programming" and after going to the SX, I can truely relate to that.

The Propeller using a kind of "C' based with OOP language modules seem much easier than SX/B and the forums seem to be bustling with more activity than the SX too ?.

I originally bought the SX-Blitz expecting a similar debug interface to the BS2, I thought the SX-Key was more like the now discontinued "inline debugger" for the BS2 and so the SX-Key wouldn't be necessary. I now know that it can be a much better tool than the BS2 Debug, But than sometimes it's not (for me anyway). The program and the peripherals (Servos) attached to it, will not run the same, as real time measurements by the BS2 Debug system and seems to make an LCD or dumb terminal a necessity.

I am writing for version 1.51.03.

And I can promise you that every one of the examples in the help file -- which I was responsible for -- work on my bench.  I have made it my habit to take working code from my editor to past into written works.  That said, formatting, etc. can sometimes screw things up.

That Parallax has hired me to write this book is a demonstration of their commitment to the chip.  I like it and use it with my own clients.  At EFX-TEK we created a controller called the Prop-SX that is generating a whole lot of interest with our advanced customers.

In the end, having my book (or the other John's book) will not magically make you a better SX/B programmer; SX/B is a layer over the SX architecture and that still needs to be understood to get the most out of the SX.  I hope, though, that my book helps make the transition from PBASIC to SX/B a quicker process for you and for others.

Bill Mazzacane,
 I wouldn't say that I wish this thread would go away. I will say that I wish it hadn't taken the detours that is has...

 You make some valid points. All the info is in the help file, but it is what it is....A help file. It doesn't really lead the newbie by the hand. You kinda have to browse around in it and "absorb" the information. Or take the example programs and modify them. Then it's the old "keep trying things until the @#@% compiler likes it" method.

 I've only seen a little of Jon's book but I think it will be pretty much what you are looking for.

 The beta version of SX/B has some different things, but they still need alot of testing. And I wouldn't look for it to be released anytime soon. Version 1.51.03 is working very well, and that is what the two books will be based on.

 I'm sorry you had a rough start, I hope the forums have helped somewhat...

Bean.

Bill,
I've written about SX/B in Nuts & Volts since it was released.  Here's a couple references to articles (some using VP-type code) that you might find useful.  Just keep in mind that as SX/B has matured, the older article code may need updating to get the best from it.