Post by thread:Crossing the Commercial Line

It seems I may have crossed the line in mentioning our Hobbyist Pack PIC Programmer. We just got hooked to Internet a couple of weeks ago, and I apologize if I violated any rules. I know that the Internet is not for commercial purposes, so I purposely kept the message short and left out such facts as the price and how to order. I hoped to keep the message much like a friend telling another friend about our product. Several hours after posting the programmer message, we received five or ten inquiries. The "SysOp" (for lack of the proper term) feels that me message is a good example of something that may or may not be in violation. If it is found to be in violation (or just in really bad taste), we will refrain from any further such postings. We would, of course, be happy to answer PIC questions. In closing, please accept my apology if I erred... ------------------------ Lance Walley --------------------------- President Parallax, Inc.

Lance, As I said in my post, it is a rough call, and I was not trying to rail on you or your company. Also, my roll as PIC list "sysop" is fairly limited and I didn't mean to preach from that podium (the IMHO at the start of the post meant "In My Humble Opinion") For the record, the Internet *is* generally for commercial purposes. Very little of the physical infrastructure of the net is non-commercial, and the old rules of use are gone. However, certain mailing lists and newsgroups have their own rules, which are usually "enforced" by general common sense and previous net experience. As more people/companies come on the net, common sense might (hopefully) still prevail (for example, you seem quite reasonable, and I appreciate your coherent reply) but the experience with the net may be lacking. That is why I was asking whether we should have a more explicit policy for the list which all PIC list members would automatically receive when they joined, so people would know where they stood from the outset. Again, I am personally interested in solutions which keep the folks from Microchip, Parallax, et. al. (and Don Lekei ;) as active PIC list contributors without filling subscribers (i.e. my own) mailboxes with promotional junk email (especially when Parallax doesn't offer anything I can use with my MAC or UNIX machines ;) I find when members of the industry answer questions on the net from their postions (presumably) as experts, it makes me respect them and their products more than any press-release/blurb. So Lance, I would urge you to actively participate in the PIC list when you know something about the topic, and don't worry too much about offending anyone. On the other hand, remember that a lot of people join the PIC list for the technical discussion, and appreciate postings in that vein. Also, in my case at least, your attempt to keep the posting kind of "like a friend telling another friend about [y]our product" was less appealing/successful than if you had just acknowledged your desire (however well intentioned) to push your own programmer (I mean, you *are* president of the company! and it would be kind of implausible to think that you just *happened* to suggest the Parallax product to a friend). jory bell spam_OUTjoryTakeThisOuTmit.edu {Quote hidden}>It seems I may have crossed the line in mentioning our Hobbyist Pack PIC >Programmer. We just got hooked to Internet a couple of weeks ago, and I >apologize if I violated any rules. I know that the Internet is not for >commercial purposes, so I purposely kept the message short and left out such >facts as the price and how to order. I hoped to keep the message much like a >friend telling another friend about our product. > >Several hours after posting the programmer message, we received five or ten >inquiries. The "SysOp" (for lack of the proper term) feels that me message >is a good example of something that may or may not be in violation. If it is >found to be in violation (or just in really bad taste), we will refrain from >any further such postings. We would, of course, be happy to answer PIC >questions. > >In closing, please accept my apology if I erred... > > >------------------------ Lance Walley --------------------------- > President > Parallax, Inc.

Jory: I believe that the ambiguities with commercial announcements on the net arise because advertisements serve two distinct purposes: they announce the existence of a product, and they attempt to induce people to purchase it. On the net, the former is desirable, the latter less so. I propose that our policy be to permit representatives of commercial interests to announce the existence of their products, but not to push them. So, "Our Product X does what you want" is acceptable, while "It costs $x" or "Our competitor's Product Y doesn't cut it" is not because it constitutes an overt inducement. I also propose that we err on the side of the group's interests. Thus, "Our Product X is priced for the hobbiest market" might be acceptable because it helps a significant portion of the group membership find something that could improve their lives. Finally, to address your concern about keeping the valuable expertise of vendor's representatives in our group, simply insist that when they post in their official capacity, they so state. Paul Milazzo <.....milazzoKILLspam.....bbn.com> BBN Systems and Technologies Cambridge, MA

I saw no problem with this posting as it was definitely within the subject matter of this list (green card lotteries are not) and, as you mentioned it was short and fairly innocuous. On the other hand, it did strike me as somewhat unprofessional, especially since this particular product was mentioned a few days earlier by a list participant who has no affiliation to Parallax. I hope that you don't get too much flack over this. {Quote hidden}> > It seems I may have crossed the line in mentioning our Hobbyist Pack PIC > Programmer. We just got hooked to Internet a couple of weeks ago, and I > apologize if I violated any rules. I know that the Internet is not for > commercial purposes, so I purposely kept the message short and left out such > facts as the price and how to order. I hoped to keep the message much like a > friend telling another friend about our product. > > Several hours after posting the programmer message, we received five or ten > inquiries. The "SysOp" (for lack of the proper term) feels that me message > is a good example of something that may or may not be in violation. If it is > found to be in violation (or just in really bad taste), we will refrain from > any further such postings. We would, of course, be happy to answer PIC > questions. > > In closing, please accept my apology if I erred... > > > ------------------------ Lance Walley --------------------------- > President > Parallax, Inc. >

I would like to propose a moderate positon which would allow some level of advertising while allowing people to ignore it if they don't want to see it. Personally, I would like to know if something is an ad before I spend time to look at it. The current subject line gives no clue. But, we could stipulate that anyone posting an advert to the list to place ADVERT: at the beginning of the subject line. Futhermore, the listserv software coule be modified to filter out any messages that have ADVERT in the subject. People not wanting advertising could send a message to listserv to hold ADVERT messages. Like everything else on the Net, compliance is optional. Given the nature of this list, I think it could work. Personally, it would make it easier for me to look at the ads which are of interest to me. cheers, eric

On Dec 22, 8:10am, Bruce Coward wrote: |Subject: Re: Crossing the Commercial Line | I think that the "Product Announcement" style of commercial posting is | very acceptable. I find it very useful to hear of new products or product | upgrades by any means whatsoever and so allowing them on this listing | would get my vote. | | I share the abhorrence of allowing full blown advertising though. | | Bruce Coward |-- End of excerpt from Bruce Coward This is my feeling also. I think the recent example that sparked this thread was handled well. Common sense is the best approach - too bad it is not more common. *Reg Neale=EraseMEnealespam_OUTTakeThisOuTee.rochester.edu ....standard disclaimer applies...* *...Ignorance is a renewable resource."....P.J. O'Rourke............*

> Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 00:36:46 PST > From: "Eric T. Brewer" <Ericspam_OUTcup.portal.com> > I would like to propose a moderate positon which would allow some level > of advertising while allowing people to ignore it if they don't want to > see it. Personally, I would like to know if something is an ad before > I spend time to look at it. Unfortunately, by the time I see the header, I've already paid to download it. Now I'm not claiming that this causes intolerable hardship or anything serious, but paying to receive junk mail puts a wire brush up my er, , nose. :) How about, , Anyone wishing to advertise something put the words "Advert Available" in the .sig area. Then whoever wishes to read it can send private e-mail for it. __ TAK