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PICList Thread
'Programing speed: ICSP vs Bootloader'
2009\03\31@142052 by Peter Onion

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In very general terms, which is the quickest method of programing
a PIC ?  

I have up to now used a home brewed ICSP programer that takes blocks of
code from a PC via an RS232 link, then programs them into a PIC.

For my next project I'm expecting to have a lot of code and I'm just
wondering if it will be any quicker to use a boot loader.

PeterO



2009\03\31@151834 by Mauricio Giovagnini

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Peter Onion escribió:
> In very general terms, which is the quickest method of programing
> a PIC ?  
>
> I have up to now used a home brewed ICSP programer that takes blocks of
> code from a PC via an RS232 link, then programs them into a PIC.
>
> For my next project I'm expecting to have a lot of code and I'm just
> wondering if it will be any quicker to use a boot loader.
>
> PeterO
>

RS232 programmers are slow in general due to the "rounding"
of the programming pulses.

A fast ICSP programmer is much faster than any bootloader
and on small devices you guarantee a *real* reset.  Have you
tried pickit2 ?






--
------------------------------
Mauricio Giovagnini (Maunix)
http://www.maunix.com.ar
Cordoba, Arg.
LinkedIn Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mgiovagnini

2009\03\31@165206 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> In very general terms, which is the quickest method of programing
> a PIC ?  
>
> I have up to now used a home brewed ICSP programer that takes blocks of
> code from a PC via an RS232 link, then programs them into a PIC.
>
> For my next project I'm expecting to have a lot of code and I'm just
> wondering if it will be any quicker to use a boot loader.

As often, the answer is "depends". First of all it depends on which PIC
you use. Compare the self-write time, the ICSP write time, and the RS232
communication speed.

--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2009\03\31@165406 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> A fast ICSP programmer is much faster than any bootloader

can you substantiate that?


--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2009\03\31@171348 by Gordon Williams

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> > In very general terms, which is the quickest method of programing
> > a PIC ?

Does it really matter?  Both are going to be very fast relative (seconds) to
the other work involved (days, months) so it is a moot point.

Sometime you are going to have to get the bootloader program onto the chip
so some sort of programmer is required.  If your project is going to have a
serial port on it anyway go for the bootloader, otherwise use the ICSP.

Gordon Williams

2009\03\31@183204 by Tamas Rudnai

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On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 9:53 PM, Wouter van Ooijen <spam_OUTwouterTakeThisOuTspamvoti.nl> wrote:

> > A fast ICSP programmer is much faster than any bootloader
>
> can you substantiate that?


There is an Enhanced ICSP programming mode which is supported by many chips
- I do not know how much is the difference compared to the standard ICSP
mode though.

Tamas
--
http://www.mcuhobby.com


'Programing speed: ICSP vs Bootloader'
2009\04\01@111335 by Mauricio Giovagnini
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Wouter van Ooijen escribió:
>> A fast ICSP programmer is much faster than any bootloader
>
> can you substantiate that?
>
>

I was talking about slow RS232 direct ICSP programmers that
rely on a poor hardware that seem to be the case of the OP.
 Making them faster led them to veryfication errors.

Then as a general case a ICSP programmer meant to be such a
programmer is faster.  I'm aware that the flash is
programmed at the same speed no matter if you use a
bootloader or the ICSP.

Now I realize that I missread the post and the OP was
talking about an intermediate ICSP programmer that read data
from RS232 and then programmed the device directly.

=)



--
------------------------------
Mauricio Giovagnini (Maunix)
http://www.maunix.com.ar
Cordoba, Arg.
LinkedIn Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mgiovagnini

2009\04\01@132812 by Peter Onion

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On Tue, 2009-03-31 at 17:13 -0500, Gordon Williams wrote:
> > > In very general terms, which is the quickest method of programing
> > > a PIC ?
>
> Does it really matter?  

Of course it does, otherwise why would I be asking ?

> Both are going to be very fast relative (seconds) to
> the other work involved (days, months) so it is a moot point.

I have to ask if you have ever done any PIC development which involved
any debugging ?

PeterO


2009\04\01@142750 by Gordon Williams

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From: "Peter Onion" <.....Peter.OnionKILLspamspam@spam@btinternet.com>


> On Tue, 2009-03-31 at 17:13 -0500, Gordon Williams wrote:
> > > > In very general terms, which is the quickest method of programing
> > > > a PIC ?
> >
> > Does it really matter?
>
> Of course it does, otherwise why would I be asking ?

Most likely because you are barking up the wrong tree.

>
> > Both are going to be very fast relative (seconds) to
> > the other work involved (days, months) so it is a moot point.
>
> I have to ask if you have ever done any PIC development which involved
> any debugging ?
>

Yup, lots.

Think about it.  Work out your estimate time to upload the program vs. the
total time to write it and debug it.

Gordon Williams

2009\04\01@144520 by Peter Onion

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On Wed, 2009-04-01 at 14:26 -0500, Gordon Williams wrote:
> From: "Peter Onion" <Peter.OnionspamKILLspambtinternet.com>
>
>
> > On Tue, 2009-03-31 at 17:13 -0500, Gordon Williams wrote:
> > > > > In very general terms, which is the quickest method of programing
> > > > > a PIC ?
> > >
> > > Does it really matter?
> >
> > Of course it does, otherwise why would I be asking ?
>
> Most likely because you are barking up the wrong tree.

And you have made lots of wrong assumptions about things I didn't ask
about....  

{Quote hidden}

Now who's barking up the wrong tree !  Again you've made all sorts of
wrong assumptions about what is important to me...

I asked about speed of programming because that IS what is important to
me, regardless of what you might assume....

End of conversation.

PeterO


2009\04\01@144634 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> Think about it.  Work out your estimate time to upload the program vs. the
> total time to write it and debug it.

I don't think this is as clear-cut as you think. I have done work were
this was 1:100, but there have been extreme cases where it was more like
100:1. And that was just developing, imagine that you must burn a lot of
those chips (worst case: a number just below where it would make sense
to let someone else do it).

--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2009\04\01@205807 by Gordon Williams

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Wouter van Ooijen" <.....wouterKILLspamspam.....voti.nl>


> > Think about it.  Work out your estimate time to upload the program vs.
the
> > total time to write it and debug it.
>
> I don't think this is as clear-cut as you think. I have done work were
> this was 1:100, but there have been extreme cases where it was more like
> 100:1.

Hmm 100 hrs of program upload time vs 1 hr of programing and debugging?
That must have been one extreme case!  Ouch!  (Surely, you must mean
something else.)


>And that was just developing, imagine that you must burn a lot of
> those chips (worst case: a number just below where it would make sense
> to let someone else do it).

Production programming is another issue.

In reality we are only talking a difference on the order of seconds between
ICSP and bootloading each round.  Even if you have to reprogram, say, 100
times that only works out to a few minutes.

IMHO it is more important to implement the method that is easiest for you.
You will save the most time that way.

Regards,

Gordon Williams

2009\04\02@012611 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> Hmm 100 hrs of program upload time vs 1 hr of programing and debugging?
> That must have been one extreme case!  Ouch!  (Surely, you must mean
> something else.)

I am of course not sure of the exact figures, but think of a test
program (for my programmer) that deliberately fills the full code memory
with junk. That test program must be used with all kinds of PICs
(12-bit, 14-bit, 16-bit, with and without eeprom, etc), and in the end
with all PICs supported by my programmer. Extreme, but real.

--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

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