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'Re[2]: Batteries [OT]'
1997\11\21@081830 by Steve Lawther

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    After testing various AA sized Alkalines (all retail standard - not
    specials), for use in our Hand-held PCs, at various discharge
    currents, we were shocked to find Duracells (European - may be
    different to US) were very low down the performance table. (ie
    pathetic!)
   
    We have now dumped them, and recommend Panasonic AA alkalines, which
    are half the price, double the performance, and companies using our
    PCs find they are not nicked as much by their employees for walkmans,
    as the employees believe them to be inferior!
   
    This said, there were other alkalines that were close to the Panasonic
    level, so do the trials on you product to see if a different make
    excels at your specific application. (And don't be surprised by the
    results)
   
    I now have an attitude problem with all Duracell adverts!
   
               Steve Lawther
   
    Webpage:-
   
    http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/steve_lawther/

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Mike Harrison wrote:-

>Manufacturers don't say much about the capacity of alkaline batteries, I
>think a safe assumption would be about 4x the capacity of the same size
>Ni-Cd.  But not rechargeable, or rechargeable only a small number of
>times.  This is the least expensive battery system to manufacture, since
>the user pays someone else for the batteries.
I recently needed detailed discharge curve info on alkalines, and was
staggered to find that Duracell couldn't supply anything othr than a
couple of reference curves at specific loads & temps. Surely these guys
have been making batteries long enough to be able to supply a simple
program which would give a discharge curve at any given load & temp
(i.e. what the customer really NEEDS) - apparently not! We had to spend
a lot of time testing, as we had to provide a lo-bat warning with a
specific amount of running time available (due to the standards the
product had to comply with). Lack of info was a REAL pain.
    <snip>

1997\11\21@091554 by Scott Walsh

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    Battery performance information is extremely hard to get hold of. We
    are making a product at the moment that needs to incorporate both a
    battery charger and a mechansim for determining the amount of useable
    time left in a battery ... the battery people are of little help, this
    includes comapnies such as Gold Peak, Panasonic, Energizer and Varta!

    Hence, I have had to spend a large amount of time using GPIB
    controlled DVM's to measure batteries while being charged and
    discharegd.

    Mike, what method did you use for the product to give a user an
    indication that the battery was failing? ... I have been playing with
    usign either an absolute measure or rate of change of the battery
    voltage.

    kind regards,
    SW.

    PS. I think this thread is great, it is easy to tell from the tone
    that people are writing in that there is a mutual appreciation of the
    headache these 'simple' devices cause. But hey .. its only software
    8-)


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Batteries [OT]
Author:  spam_OUTwwlTakeThisOuTspamnetcomuk.co.uk at INTERNET
Date:    21/11/97 09:36


>Manufacturers don't say much about the capacity of alkaline batteries, I
>think a safe assumption would be about 4x the capacity of the same size
>Ni-Cd.  But not rechargeable, or rechargeable only a small number of
>times.  This is the least expensive battery system to manufacture, since
>the user pays someone else for the batteries.
I recently needed detailed discharge curve info on alkalines, and was
staggered to find that Duracell couldn't supply anything othr than a
couple of reference curves at specific loads & temps. Surely these guys
have been making batteries long enough to be able to supply a simple
program which would give a discharge curve at any given load & temp
(i.e. what the customer really NEEDS) - apparently not! We had to spend
a lot of time testing, as we had to provide a lo-bat warning with a
specific amount of running time available (due to the standards the
product had to comply with). Lack of info was a REAL pain.
    ____                                                           ____
  _/ L_/  Mike Harrison / White Wing Logic / .....wwlKILLspamspam@spam@netcomuk.co.uk  _/ L_/
_/ W_/  Hardware & Software design / PCB Design / Consultancy  _/ W_/
/_W_/  Industrial / Computer Peripherals / Hazardous Area      /_W_/

1997\11\21@095329 by Goeran Stigler

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Scott Walsh wrote:
>     Battery performance information is extremely hard to get hold of. We
>     are making a product at the moment that needs to incorporate both a
>     battery charger and a mechansim for determining the amount of useable
>     time left in a battery ... the battery people are of little help, this
>     includes comapnies such as Gold Peak, Panasonic, Energizer and Varta!

Those who fly electric RC planes (I mostly read about them) seldom discuss
NiCd brands, only what size of Sanyos to use. This is a high-current
application, of course.


Goeran Stigler                      http://www.pe.chalmers.se/people/ghost/

1997\11\21@190208 by Rob Zitka

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At 01:12 PM 11/21/97 +0000, you wrote:
>     After testing various AA sized Alkalines (all retail standard - not
>     specials), for use in our Hand-held PCs, at various discharge
>     currents, we were shocked to find Duracells (European - may be
>     different to US) were very low down the performance table. (ie
>     pathetic!)
>
>     We have now dumped them, and recommend Panasonic AA alkalines, which
>     are half the price, double the performance, and companies using our
>     PCs find they are not nicked as much by their employees for walkmans,
>     as the employees believe them to be inferior!
>
>     This said, there were other alkalines that were close to the Panasonic
>     level, so do the trials on you product to see if a different make
>     excels at your specific application. (And don't be surprised by the
>     results)
>
>     I now have an attitude problem with all Duracell adverts!


Oddly enough, Consumer reports rated Duracell near the middle of the pack.
The little Energizer bunny was at the bottom :(

Rob
>                Steve Lawther
>
>     Webpage:-
>
>     http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/steve_lawther/
>
>______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
{Quote hidden}

1997\11\21@191430 by Bill Von Novak

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At 01:12 PM 11/21/97 +0000, you wrote:

>I recently needed detailed discharge curve info on alkalines, and was
>staggered to find that Duracell couldn't supply anything othr than a
>couple of reference curves at specific loads & temps. Surely these guys
>have been making batteries long enough to be able to supply a simple
>program which would give a discharge curve at any given load & temp
>(i.e. what the customer really NEEDS) - apparently not! We had to spend
>a lot of time testing, as we had to provide a lo-bat warning with a
>specific amount of running time available (due to the standards the
>product had to comply with). Lack of info was a REAL pain.

       this is not at all unusual.  battery manufacturers typically do not test
over a very wide range of parameters.  they generally pick a "standard"
discharge profile (constant resistance for small batteries and constant
current for larger batteries are popular profiles) and rate their batteries
according to that.  i have found this to be true of manufacturers from
small li-ion to 200 A-H VR lead acid batteries.

       a battery is a remarkably complex chemical system, and any "simple"
program to give discharge curves will be either somewhat inaccurate or not
very simple.  we worked with johnson controls quite a bit to try to get a
battery life prediction program for a big lead-acid pack, and had only
limited success.  there are just too many variables.  is one of the
batteries 4 months older than the other 3?  it throws everything off.  is
it cold out?  that changes their internal resistance but not their
capacity.  was it warm when the battery was charged, but cool when it was
discharged?  any charge accumulator will be thrown off by that.

       and this is for lead-acid, supposedly a well-understood chemistry.

-bill von

1997\11\21@192243 by wwl

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On Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:11:33 -0800, you wrote:

{Quote hidden}

I meant simple as far as the user was concerned!

    ____                                                           ____
  _/ L_/  Mike Harrison / White Wing Logic / wwlspamKILLspamnetcomuk.co.uk  _/ L_/
_/ W_/  Hardware & Software design / PCB Design / Consultancy  _/ W_/
/_W_/  Industrial / Computer Peripherals / Hazardous Area      /_W_/

1997\11\23@183001 by Tom Handley

picon face
re: Panasonic Batteries

  Steve, I have an old Panasonic VCR and I noticed the remote still has
the original Panasonic AA cells from 7 years ago and they are still
working.

  - Tom

At 01:12 PM 11/21/97 +0000, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1997\11\25@045945 by Scott Walsh

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    Nigel,

    I looked at http://www.lpilsley.demon.co.uk/Viewbatt.htm

    but the gifs dont want to load, when I look at the path for the gifs
    they are on C:\turnpike\blah\blah*.gif

    kind regards,
    SW.


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Batteries [OT]
Author:  pic microcontroller discussion list <.....PICLISTKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU> at
INTERNET
Date:    23/11/97 13:54


In message <EraseMEyam7265.2652.137806280spam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmail.ipsnet.it>, Alessandro Zummo
<azummospamspam_OUTita.flashnet.it> writes
{Quote hidden}

I've placed the graphs on my site in the miscellaneous pages, linked
from the main index page.

I've sent a copy of this to the PicList as well, in case anyone there is
interested.

--

Nigel.

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       | Lower Pilsley   | Web Page : http://www.lpilsley.demon.co.uk |
       | Chesterfield    |                                            |
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